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Aeroclub

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Sorry if it has been suggested before, but I was thinking that these should definitely be implemented.

Unlike the landmines (which only had impact on a very small tactical level), the naval mines played a much bigger strategic role in WW2, even sinking a couple battleships (that I know of) - HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant. And AFAIK, there were also planted on a very large scale and did themselves cost a significant amount of resources to produce - so they should definitely fit in the scale of the game.

Even some kind of simplified system like "building" naval mines in the sea zones near your coastline just like you did with infrastructure on land, with each "level" of mines increasing the chance of hostile ships passing by receiving a randomized amount of damage, would work just fine.

What do you guys think?
 

Mannstien

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As long as they are off map, they added those to BICE at some point and thankfully they eventually added a decision at the start of each game to disable them. They just seem like an eye sore to me and if I'm using my laptop instead of "the beast" desktop they also affected performance.
 

Aeroclub

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I don't think that performance will lack if the actual gamedevs, as oppose to modders, handle them.

So how did they play in that mod and did you like having them around from the gameplay perspective?
 

Mannstien

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I don't think that performance will lack if the actual gamedevs, as oppose to modders, handle them.

So how did they play in that mod and did you like having them around from the gameplay perspective?

I did like them from a gameplay standpoint, I think the modders did the best they could to make sure there was a low chance of them being overpowered and exploited with the game mechanics they had to work with which also limited how you could deploy them. They were handled through a yearly event which would ask if you wanted to deploy them and since it was by event they could specify by country what zones would be options and also landlocked countries wouldn't have the event fire. Also if by chance a hostile navy was engaged by a minefield in a province (low chance because of province sizes) they would take damage but also the mine unit itself would be destroyed so as not to have massive amounts of mines by 43'-44'.

It's not a terrible mechanic but instead of icons representing them as if they are a unit I'd personally rather see them represented as a province modifier and some sort of indicator on the map to show your navy has discovered them.
 

Big Nev

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Sorry if it has been suggested before, but I was thinking that these should definitely be implemented.

Unlike the landmines (which only had impact on a very small tactical level), the naval mines played a much bigger strategic role in WW2, even sinking a couple battleships (that I know of) - HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant. And AFAIK, there were also planted on a very large scale and did themselves cost a significant amount of resources to produce - so they should definitely fit in the scale of the game.

Even some kind of simplified system like "building" naval mines in the sea zones near your coastline just like you did with infrastructure on land, with each "level" of mines increasing the chance of hostile ships passing by receiving a randomized amount of damage, would work just fine.

What do you guys think?

There's also the very significant strategic use of mines by "placing" then near other countries coastline.

They could be dropped by aircraft or laid (surprise surprise) by minelayers, submarines & destroyers.

If they are going to be included, it also makes sense to include minelayers & minesweepers and a few tech's like magnetic mines, acoustic mines & degaussing.

I found this ( http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsMineWarfare1.htm ) which appears to be a blow-by-blow account of the mine war.

I’m all for it if the AI can be taught how to use them and counter them sensibly.
 

Poh

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The "problem" imho is that mines is something you place to protect something very specific and sea provinces are really big. One of the channel provinces is 160x180km or about 35 square km you would either have to handle placement of mines within a province and track ships compared to that (which i dont think is viable because its not within the scale of the game) or you would have to apply a attrition modifier to fleets in the province. However an attrition modifier kinda neglects the function of mines which imho is to provide manmade reefs so the enemy doesnt know where they can sail if they wanted to attack a certain high priority target and to provide critical hits on ships if hit.

Tbh i think they are outside the scope of the game and i cant think of a way to implement mines without them either adding lots of micro or just being an indifferent feature that doesnt add anything to the game.
 

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Sorry if it has been suggested before, but I was thinking that these should definitely be implemented.

Unlike the landmines (which only had impact on a very small tactical level), the naval mines played a much bigger strategic role in WW2, even sinking a couple battleships (that I know of) - HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant. And AFAIK, there were also planted on a very large scale and did themselves cost a significant amount of resources to produce - so they should definitely fit in the scale of the game.

Even some kind of simplified system like "building" naval mines in the sea zones near your coastline just like you did with infrastructure on land, with each "level" of mines increasing the chance of hostile ships passing by receiving a randomized amount of damage, would work just fine.

What do you guys think?

The big question is how would they be implemented?
 

Big Nev

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The "problem" imho is that mines is something you place to protect something very specific and sea provinces are really big. One of the channel provinces is 160x180km or about 35 square km you would either have to handle placement of mines within a province and track ships compared to that (which i dont think is viable because its not within the scale of the game) or you would have to apply a attrition modifier to fleets in the province. However an attrition modifier kinda neglects the function of mines which imho is to provide manmade reefs so the enemy doesnt know where they can sail if they wanted to attack a certain high priority target and to provide critical hits on ships if hit.

Tbh i think they are outside the scope of the game and i cant think of a way to implement mines without them either adding lots of micro or just being an indifferent feature that doesnt add anything to the game.

There are, however, few places of interest with regard to such provinces. As an extreme, you can't just mine the North Atlantic but you could certainly mine the passages through the sea south of Kristiansand or the waters between Odense & Malmo. Germany developed the quite nasty habit of dropping a few mines in the Thames Estuary which was (usually) very effective at isolating London from the sea for weeks at a time. The mouth of the Mersey was another favourite resulting in severe losses of shipping bound for Liverpool.

Typically, mines were used to blockade ports, straits or channels. The English Channel being one of the first to be blockaded with mines by Britain. You don't need to entirely fill such a sea-zone with mines. All you need is a few strings.

The mines laid by Britain in the English Channel mentioned in the article are of particular interest as it describes them as "anti-submarine" mines. How does a mine know if it's contacted a submarine rather than a ship?

The English Channel was, most definitely, open to navigation by surface ships (even German ships) but definitely closed to submarines. So... did every man & his dog have a map showing where not to go? I'm pretty sure such a map wasn't captured by Germany. All they'd need to do is watch for a few days to see where ships went. Or was it simply that these mines were tethered in such a way that they remained submerged and, therefore, were only a threat to submerged units? This implies that a surfaced submarine would be able to pass over them without incident. Other than running the gauntlet of the RN, RAF and whatever coastal batteries were awake of course.

I think it's a fascinating subject and, considering that for part of the war at least, losses to mines was second only to submarines and remained significant throughout the war.

I'd love to be able to "bottle-up" the German fleet, or Scapa Flow so that Bismarck can escape in to the Atlantic.

My only reservations are:-

You can only mine certain sea zones. Typically those with ports and (you're mining the ports so movement isn't restricted other than to/from the port) channels & straits.

The AI might not be able to use the weapon "sensibly" and it would put yet another tool in the hands of the player. To mitigate this, you could have a switch to turn mines off, just as we have on that turns nukes off.
 

Jorlaan

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I would love to see naval mines in the game, they add something important in the naval theater.
 

nimrod123

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august storms way was fairly simple, they had a minelayer naval unit that represent the units laying the mines, that you placed in a naval provience.

they had a tiny range ~100km, and massive sea damage.
 

Cpack

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The big question is how would they be implemented?

I'm sure it won't be implemented, but I also would like to have them


Maybe just like buildings on land provinces:

lvl 1 will add 1% Chance of a sea attack hit of X to a fleet or a convoy, and so on

How to lay them: Give some ship classes the ability for minelaying, and then they have to stay in a seazone, then there's a buttom at the fleet to lay mines (one level) and after 24h, one lvl mines are layed.

Reasons why it won't be implemented:

1) new "building" or others is needed
2) new minelaying variable
3) new stats
4) new seazone variable (can only layed at shore seazones or shallow waters)
 

Aeroclub

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To solve the problem of mining huge sea zones, maybe we could get some designated coastal zones? They would be the only areas where mines could be laid as well as smaller vessels such as torpedo boats operate.

I just feel that both were too big of a factor in the naval WW2 to be left out.
 

Mannstien

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Yeah, as I said BICE kind of dealt with them by giving them a really low chance to engage a ship. But not all sea provinces are created equally and the stats didn't change bases on that, mines had the same chance of engaging a ship whether it was in a channel province or mid pacific.
 

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My two cents: ask ourselves what minefields specifically did, and then go from there.

Personally, I'm thinking mines could be tied to coastal forts. There could be a kind of "minefield" doctrine or tech that perhaps added to the strength of coastal forts, while perhaps making them a tad bit more expensive. They could also add to the attrition of ships operating against provinces with coastal forts (such as invasion ships landing troops, or even warships conducting shore bombardment), and perhaps also to the invading troops themselves.

Also, at least in the GWX expansion to Silent Hunter III, minefields were used extensively along with anti-submarine nets to keep out marauding u-boats from harbours. If there was a "port strike" ability for submarines (real or abstracted), minefields could be one of the things that countered it, increasing the damage to the submarine flotillas or keeping them out completely.
 

fillap

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I would add my voice to those calling for mines to be added.

I don't think it should be limited to coastal or port provinces either. Extensive areas of sea could and were mined. The US proposed and started to mine the Northern end of the North Sea in WW1, aiming to cover the area from Scotland to Norway. In WW2 Japan had extensive minefields on the entrances to the Sea of Japan that were designed to keep US subs out of that vital lifeline.

I can also offer an opinion on how it should be implemented. Rather than the creation of units you would have mine layers and mine sweepers as things that can be constructed like convoys and escorts in HOI3. The mine layer units would simulate the naval, submarine and aerial units responsible for this role, though they never appear on the actual screen. It is important that these units cost resources though, as even defencive minefields needed replacement mines as older ones slipped their mooring. They should also take losses if operating in areas where the enemy has naval or aerial superiority (another concept I would like added to the game). This creates a cost to maintain minefields. You can assign your mine layers to any number of provinces within a certain range of a friendly port province. They will then set about laying a mine field. If however you only have 10 mine layers and there are 100 sea provinces you have set them to mine they will not mine them very effectively. Over time the minefield builds up however, creating a chance of sinking or damaging non-friendly ships or convoys going through a sea zone.

Minesweepers should be similar except there should be an even more increased penalty for trying to clear minefields when out of areas where aerial or naval superiority is held. The clearing of mines from the channel for Normandy would have been much more costly if Germany had been challenging the allies in the air and at sea. There should be an optimum ratio of minesweepers to capital ships, if you drop bellow it then the chances of damaging these vessels increase. I would finally include an option that allows a fleet to plow through a minefield recklessly, risking damage for the chance of gaining some other advantage. Your could set your entire navy to one default setting and alter this fleet by fleet, or even movement order by movement order. If Sea Lion were launched there was no way the Grand Fleet would have slowed down through known enemy minefields.
 

tommylotto

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Unlike the landmines (which only had impact on a very small tactical level), the naval mines played a much bigger strategic role in WW2, even sinking a couple battleships (that I know of) - HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant.

The sinkings of those battleships are not good examples of what you are talking about. Those mines were actually placed directly on those battleship by badass frogmen riding torpedoes into a defended harbor. I'd love the game to include something to represent the Decima MAS, because that attack had major strategic consequences. Also, the sea mine fields that you are talking about were something that deserves to be represented.
 

Praetori

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Mines in coastal areas could probably be seen as abstracted with the Port Strike missions (for offensive purposes, lowering the efficiency of the harbor), and by Coastal Fortifications (for defensive purposes).
Now I guess the entire system of Port-Strike and Forts is going to be re-vamped in any case but mines on their own would probably be very hard to implement and still keeping friction/ease-of-use down for the player and AI alike.

Open seas and minefields is a different beast. What it basically meant was that some sea-zones were effectively blocked until lanes had been cleared. Other than the odd Capital-ship sunk by mines the overall effect on individual units on such a large scale as HOI4 would probably only be tedious (like partisan-whack-a-mole since the AI is completely crappy at dealing with them despite assigned units).

The actual effects of naval mine warfare on the strategic level was more area-denial than an offensive/defensive weapon. Sure enough a lot of civilian tonnage was sunk this way as well as some hundred warships (including tugs, patrolcraft up to curisers and the odd capital) but most minefields were detected and avoided or partly cleared before they could sink any significant tonnage.

Don't get me wrong. Naval mines as a weapon was important and large efforts were taken both to deploy and to clear them but the overall effect on such a large scale as HOI4 should be statistical at best if micro-hell or AI-incompetence are to be avoided.
 

Aeroclub

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The sinkings of those battleships are not good examples of what you are talking about. Those mines were actually placed directly on those battleship by badass frogmen riding torpedoes into a defended harbor. I'd love the game to include something to represent the Decima MAS, because that attack had major strategic consequences. Also, the sea mine fields that you are talking about were something that deserves to be represented.

Thank you for the correction! And I absolutely agree that all these things that had some strategic impact should be in the game in one way or another. As for Decima MAS, maybe they would be better represented by an undercover operation of sabotaging ships rather than a unit.
 

ingwe

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Mines in coastal areas could probably be seen as abstracted with the Port Strike missions (for offensive purposes, lowering the efficiency of the harbor), and by Coastal Fortifications (for defensive purposes).
Now I guess the entire system of Port-Strike and Forts is going to be re-vamped in any case but mines on their own would probably be very hard to implement and still keeping friction/ease-of-use down for the player and AI alike.

Open seas and minefields is a different beast. What it basically meant was that some sea-zones were effectively blocked until lanes had been cleared. Other than the odd Capital-ship sunk by mines the overall effect on individual units on such a large scale as HOI4 would probably only be tedious (like partisan-whack-a-mole since the AI is completely crappy at dealing with them despite assigned units).

The actual effects of naval mine warfare on the strategic level was more area-denial than an offensive/defensive weapon. Sure enough a lot of civilian tonnage was sunk this way as well as some hundred warships (including tugs, patrolcraft up to curisers and the odd capital) but most minefields were detected and avoided or partly cleared before they could sink any significant tonnage.

Don't get me wrong. Naval mines as a weapon was important and large efforts were taken both to deploy and to clear them but the overall effect on such a large scale as HOI4 should be statistical at best if micro-hell or AI-incompetence are to be avoided.

I agree completely. Not implementing them would make me sad, but I can't think of any way to make them interesting, not overpowered, and not micro hell. They were a big deal during the actual war, but I am not sure that they are part of the scope of HOI.
 

Avindian

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I think the best way to simulate this in a way that's not micro hell would be as a sea province modifier that, with an unlucky roll, damages or destroys a ship. However, given the size of sea provinces of HOI3, I don't even know that this is practical.

Minefields would also spawn levels upon levels of complexity; you'd almost need a new variable for every ship to determine detectability by mines, the chance of friendly fire, a way to slow down or misdirect convoys based on the threat of mines, minesweepers, different types of mines, even down to the temperature of the water and the effect of latitudes on magnetic mines.