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sterrius

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Well, this is most likely one of my last guides/topics about naval. As i covered pretty much all we need from the new naval system.

Just to remind for people that missed.


Now lets go to part 4.

DETECTION.


Detection is bascially a 2 part "game". If you fail the first part you don´t get to the second one.

First the game decides if you have a chance of finding the ship. If its below 0 the game won´t even bother to show you no matter how long you spend there trying.

Once you fill the requirements there you will go to the second part. Your % Chance of trying to find the enemy every day.



So lets go to the first part. Remember. If you Chance here is below 0% you will never find the enemy.

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42AA6034A58C293229D544B1F43D96AFFEADE707


First i have to explain the first picture.

INTEL EFFICIENCY (VERY IMPORTANT) -> This is a Debuff to your ship stats. If Intel Efficiency is at 50% that means you surface and Sub Detection are cut in Half. This can be increased to 100% by....

-Number of ships -> More ships means more intel efficiency.
-Radar -> Give coverage.
-> Navs on ship Hunting Missions.
-> Planes on AIR SUPERIORITY missions

Planes give a % Bonus to your Fleet. That % changes a lot based on Number of planes (up to 100% air supremacy) , Weather, Size of the ocean,

And if its Light or Heavy Plane. (Heavys are way better at this).

Now im going to explain every part of those numbers the best way i can.

1-> SURFACE DETECTION ->

1 Surface Detection = +0.3% chance of finding the enemy AND -0.3% chance of the enemy finding you.

This also affect Submarines. (So a radar does help them escape better).

Surface detection is a value that gets the whole value of your fleet and gets its average. (So if you have 4 ships, one with 0, two with 3 and one with 10. 10+0 +3 +3 /4 = 4 ).


2-> SUB SURFACE DETECTION ->
For every 1 point in Sub Visibility you get -1,8% Chance of the enemy finding you.
For every 1 point in Sub Detection you get +1,8% Chance of finding the enemy Submarine.

That Screen is bugged. It always shows 0% but the game does calculate in this part Sub Visibility vs Sub Detection.


3-> SPEED ->
For Every 1 Knot you get a little more Chance of finding the enemy increases by 0.05%


BUT BEWARE. Weather, Mission, Terrain types, a whole lot of factors change speed everytime. Its not rare for a ship of 20+ Knots to actually patrol around 10-15knots.

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Here is a example of how a Cruiser can be slowed down quite a bit. His original speed is 36 by the way but doing mission on the baltic made it go down to around 11. Reason the submarine have the advantage.

Submarines usually get very little speed debuffs, so they usually have a advantage in that regard.

Coordination -> Truth. No idea how it works. Likely its based on the size of the fleet you are using. I was never able to get that value above or below 100%......


All those values set. Its basically a Minus/Add calculation that is going to fill the bar up to 100%.
Once that bar is filled your strike fleet can join the combat. (if the patrol is not confident that it can take them on their own).



But wait. BEfore everything i said above to even start. You need to find there is a enemy in the region first.
So how the game calculates that?

The game rolls a dice every X hours. (I bet its 24 hours).
If you pass the number you win and start the process above. (as long you have a chance).

Now whats the number? Well, here comes the second part show in the picture.

-> BASE -> Lady Luck gives you a 1% Chance of finding the enemy. Maybe you both bump into each other ^^.

-> Task Forces in the region -> This Number is defined by the number of ships in a area. THEY DON`T NEED TO BE IN PATROL MISSIONS. A convoy defending, a sub raiding, they communicate with each other and help each other by sharing info.

Bigger the ocean, more ships you need to get a good number here. So don´t expect to have a high % in the middle of atlantic/pacific with just 1-5 ships.

-> DECRYPTION/ENCRYPTION -> + or - 3% depending on who gets the better Decryption.
Encryption removes 1 lv of encryption from the opponent.

-> Air Superiority in the Region ->
For 100% Air coverage.
Light Planes gives +1% for every 100 planes.
Heavy Planes give +2% for every 100 Planes.

So yes. Heavy Planes are more Cost efficient if your plan is to find ships. They also improve the fleet detection of everyone in the area. So Planes are essential to keep yourself hidden and at same time find the enemy.

There is no CAP. More planes = More chance to find enemy.

Radar Coverage -> +1% For every 10% of radar coverage. IT can go above 100%. So if you place tons of radar in the mediterran you can get this value to crazy numbers for example.


Now remember. DOCTRINES, TERRAIN AND WEATHER change things quite a bit.



TERRAIN ->

Shallow sea -> +100% Sub Visibility.

Fjords and Archipelagos -> -20% Visibility to everyone.

Deep Ocean -> -50% speed to Submarines and DD´s. -25% visibility to Submarines, -10% speed for Light cruisers.

Weather ->
Rain -> -5% Speed
Storm -> -10% speed -20% Detection


DOCTRINEs -> THEY ALSO HELP QUITE A BIT both to Hide and to Detect as they change Detection.

For example: The DD side of doctrines can give +15% Sub detection. (Fleet in Being).
 
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sterrius

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Will you be tackling in-battle submarine spotting too? I feel that's the major issue most players are having with subs right now.

Going to place the post i made into the Subs OP here as that clear your question :).


Detection works the same way in combat. If your ship can´t detect a submarine outside combat it will also be unable to find it in combat.

A little image heavy but i made a FRA vs GER in the mediterran using admirals and using a 36 DD vs a 40 Ger sub (no manufacturer).
At first i let them both play with each other a little and increased detection little by little with planes, (Nav´s and Heavy fighters) and later Radars. (To increase intelligence efficiency).
Slow but surely it helped the DD find the Submarines More.

But the only way to really get rid of them is to use Patrol + S&D.
and until you get a clear detection advantage you're not going to get them with patrol.

For Anti-BB raids i recommend 1 Cruiser full of Depth charges + Radar/Planes and 2-3 DD´s also full of detection. Should be enough to kill 5-10 subs.

But on some areas you might need Carriers with planes helping. Specially in the mid atlantic where subs get a -25% help from terrain.

Its pretty historical actually as the Allies at the start of the war had a Huge problem with germans subs and had to spend a ton of resources to nulify them.

So until you are ready the best you can get is placing fast DD´s so they can "save the day" and minimize losses.

Only later with tech and specialized fleets you can start to wipe them out.

Ger Tree for test
C194BCF071C4C1DECE713A172AE34106567255FB


Fra Tree for test (Allies usually can´t go deep into naval as they don´t have the -20% military theorist)
485DB3B21479016AFB2FBA764C26BEB96783DF05


FRA DD.
713C562AED5215CDF8A7FCDC6DB525ABF717B85D


GER Sub. (Radar III > Snorkel both for hiding and finding enemys). Snorkel is good for 1918 and 1936 subs that have a high sub visibility value, after 1940 go Radar II+. Specially if you use manufacturer
A18BF240E2C0305F80CFC99C5E2D807243259E5E


Used the best GER admiral for subs.
DDC4C7EC63F65A0BAA46287288CD0A12BD240F5D



For FRA used the onlY Sppoter he had and also got -20% visibility on him.
D43BD37157D9C2C4F15EC53ADE52DE24E8D25D7F



Positioning is giving HUGE penaltys to fleets now (Up to 50%) . It really hurts. Need to test more Doomstacks vs Normal fleets.
553881156806F60D11879A44909AF79B406A561D




Using Patrol as soon the combat starts the subs are already reveladed. They had no chance. Confirming what i was saying about using patrol + S&D to kill them.

CFD1B092E1CC7D0774D25A041CBDB8BABF5ECBFA
 

Dan1109

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Its a shame that aircaft sitting on the carrier cannot help. Surely you would have some CAP and ASW patrols up, not all of your planes, but some. Using CVEs are HKs would seem to be a great idea, but they only help in the kill phase, not the detection phase. Spotter planes on Cruisers only help in the detection phase. However, in reality CVEs and Spotter planes offered both some detection and some kill capability (unfortunately you cannot give your CVE aircraft manual orders while they are on a Convoy Escort mission, or any other mission).
 

Felius

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Positioning is giving HUGE penaltys to fleets now (Up to 50%) . It really hurts. Need to test more Doomstacks vs Normal fleets.
I don't know for subs, but for a normal fleet, so long the fleet is doomy enough, it more than compensates it, as can be seen by taking most US initial ships and throwing it at Japan in a single fleet. Even if you remove the subs and some 60 destroyers for escort duties from the fleet, the doomstack will still overwhelm pretty much anything the Japanese could throw at you.
 

Tavior

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I was interested in that surface detection is divided between ships.

Is submarine working the same way? Do you need sonar on each ship in a fleet patrolling to clear submarines? Otherwise submarine would goes down with each cruiser you have without sonar for other roles.
 

Znail

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I was interested in that surface detection is divided between ships.

Is submarine working the same way? Do you need sonar on each ship in a fleet patrolling to clear submarines? Otherwise submarine would goes down with each cruiser you have without sonar for other roles.
It will still work for the patrol fleet, but having a regular fleet able to find a sub would mean that you have to upgrade all the ships!
 

sterrius

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Edit: Navs also increase intelligence efficiency. Placed them on the guide.

Also increased the impotance of Naval Efficiency on the guide. ITs super super important that you upgrade it if you want to find things.



Its a shame that aircaft sitting on the carrier cannot help. Surely you would have some CAP and ASW patrols up, not all of your planes, but some. Using CVEs are HKs would seem to be a great idea, but they only help in the kill phase, not the detection phase. Spotter planes on Cruisers only help in the detection phase. However, in reality CVEs and Spotter planes offered both some detection and some kill capability (unfortunately you cannot give your CVE aircraft manual orders while they are on a Convoy Escort mission, or any other mission).

I found out NAV´s do help increase intelligence efficiency. SO carriers do help fleets to find enemys.


I was interested in that surface detection is divided between ships.

Is submarine working the same way? Do you need sonar on each ship in a fleet patrolling to clear submarines? Otherwise submarine would goes down with each cruiser you have without sonar for other roles.

yes it works the same way. If you place submarines with no Sub detection they will make things worse for the ships looking for them. LEave your ASW ships separated form the rest of the fleet.
 

Dan1109

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I found out NAV´s do help increase intelligence efficiency. SO carriers do help fleets to find enemys.

Land based NAVs, sure. But carrier based Navs? Your carrier has to just sit like a duck, and cannot perform any other mission. So then you are forced to set your fighters to air superiority (which might help detection as well), but if your fleet gets into combat, I don' think those aircraft will be involved in your battle. I suppose it may work for Carrier based HK groups in the middle of the ocean, with no air or surface threats at all in the area.
 

sterrius

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Land based NAVs, sure. But carrier based Navs? Your carrier has to just sit like a duck, and cannot perform any other mission. So then you are forced to set your fighters to air superiority (which might help detection as well), but if your fleet gets into combat, I don' think those aircraft will be involved in your battle. I suppose it may work for Carrier based HK groups in the middle of the ocean, with no air or surface threats at all in the area.

well if you're using your carrier for Hunting you will also want to give them a escort and click to not engage. Its harder than you think to find and get them ^^.

But from what i got its mostly useless to do this in the middle of the atlantic/pacific with 36 carriers. You need 1940 carriers to have some effect. Quite a bit of them actually.

But i agree its not a recommended move until you clear most dangers from the area.

But a lot of areas also have islands for this very purpose. Unsinkable carriers that can bring 2000 planes ^^.
 

tomstegmeier

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so no reason to assign the escort carriers, like the hermes to ASW fleets? aawww
 

Felius

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Speaking of detection, surface detection, which value matters? Highest detection value in a TF? Average detection value? Combined detection value, favoring larger TFs?
 

sterrius

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so no reason to assign the escort carriers, like the hermes to ASW fleets? aawww

Yeah it would be nice if Hangar slots also worked as a Scout plane II. But maybe that would make carriers too OP. They don´t need extra reasons to be used ^^.

Speaking of detection, surface detection, which value matters? Highest detection value in a TF? Average detection value? Combined detection value, favoring larger TFs?

Like i said in the guide. Surface detection is the average of the fleet.

So you want to avoid adding different ships with different detections.
The number of ships influence other values like Intelligence Efficiency.
 

Vidkjaer

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Going to place the post i made into the Subs OP here as that clear your question :).


Detection works the same way in combat. If your ship can´t detect a submarine outside combat it will also be unable to find it in combat.

A little image heavy but i made a FRA vs GER in the mediterran using admirals and using a 36 DD vs a 40 Ger sub (no manufacturer).
At first i let them both play with each other a little and increased detection little by little with planes, (Nav´s and Heavy fighters) and later Radars. (To increase intelligence efficiency).
Slow but surely it helped the DD find the Submarines More.

But the only way to really get rid of them is to use Patrol + S&D.
and until you get a clear detection advantage you're not going to get them with patrol.

For Anti-BB raids i recommend 1 Cruiser full of Depth charges + Radar/Planes and 2-3 DD´s also full of detection. Should be enough to kill 5-10 subs.

But on some areas you might need Carriers with planes helping. Specially in the mid atlantic where subs get a -25% help from terrain.

Its pretty historical actually as the Allies at the start of the war had a Huge problem with germans subs and had to spend a ton of resources to nulify them.

So until you are ready the best you can get is placing fast DD´s so they can "save the day" and minimize losses.

Only later with tech and specialized fleets you can start to wipe them out.

Ger Tree for test
C194BCF071C4C1DECE713A172AE34106567255FB


Fra Tree for test (Allies usually can´t go deep into naval as they don´t have the -20% military theorist)
485DB3B21479016AFB2FBA764C26BEB96783DF05


FRA DD.
713C562AED5215CDF8A7FCDC6DB525ABF717B85D


GER Sub. (Radar III > Snorkel both for hiding and finding enemys). Snorkel is good for 1918 and 1936 subs that have a high sub visibility value, after 1940 go Radar II+. Specially if you use manufacturer
A18BF240E2C0305F80CFC99C5E2D807243259E5E


Used the best GER admiral for subs.
DDC4C7EC63F65A0BAA46287288CD0A12BD240F5D



For FRA used the onlY Sppoter he had and also got -20% visibility on him.
D43BD37157D9C2C4F15EC53ADE52DE24E8D25D7F



Positioning is giving HUGE penaltys to fleets now (Up to 50%) . It really hurts. Need to test more Doomstacks vs Normal fleets.
553881156806F60D11879A44909AF79B406A561D




Using Patrol as soon the combat starts the subs are already reveladed. They had no chance. Confirming what i was saying about using patrol + S&D to kill them.

CFD1B092E1CC7D0774D25A041CBDB8BABF5ECBFA
Regarding your comment on positioning. It is a bug that the admiral has 75% positioning bonus. It should be 7,5% and thus the penalty should be much higher.
 

Felius

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On some further thoughts on surface spotting, specifically patrol fleets to find enemy fleets for your strike forces to engage, I've been wondering, how would submarines work on this role? CLs work wonders, of course, but they are expensive, and DDs are very fragile. But submarines, while also having low HP, if properly designed, are going to be hard to spot by the enemy, so they might actually have fewer losses than DDs would, and they are also quite a lot cheaper.
 

Putuna

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Is it possible to use a strat bombers or tacs to gain spotting chance? If so this could be a great tool for the UK to gain good detection in the Atlantic.
 

Vidkjaer

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N
Is it possible to use a strat bombers or tacs to gain spotting chance? If so this could be a great tool for the UK to gain good detection in the Atlantic.
I am not 100% sure with strats because it requires the plane to have an ongoing mission, eg. ship bombing which is not an option for strats. TAC's however can hunt for ships and provides air superiority in the zone.