Naval combat

[Grim Deadman]

I am dead sure that someone has brought this up before but I couldn't find the respective thread.

IMO you can't have a convincing Medieval Mediterranian without naval combat. What of the Arab raiders, the Greek fire et al.? If anyone knows a thread where it is explained why it's unfeasable, please post a link below, the issue has been bugging me since Legacy of Rome.

 

[MissingNo1028]

At least need blockades for sieges. At the very least

 

[Grim Deadman]

Nobody seems interested, which means either that the issue has been discussed two or three years ago with a conclusive settlement being reached, or that nobody is interested in the feature. I find the latter highly improbable. Seriously though, nobody will even answer "ur post is gay n lame n00b"? Not even "op is a f*g"? I realize this is unacceptable here and would be moderated out, but is would also be at least some kind of feedback.

 

[DeathBurst]

If you want some feedback: yes, it has already been discussed. Result is: many people are interested, but it is complex to add, and completely independent of what is already implemented, so Paradox probably won't do it, they prefer to improve what is already there (unless maybe it's the not-yet-revealed next DLC?).

Now that I think about it, I don't know any mod that added naval combat, and this surprises me a bit... Pointers, someone?

 

[Archinorf]

If a mechanic would be too independent from the rest, it doesn't prevent the team from adding a couple of events.
A enemy army is disembarking near Constantinople? An event will fire, destroying a part of their fleet.
Two opposing fleets are in the same zone? An event will fire, simulating a boarding and the loss of some troops.

Is it an underwhelming addition of naval warfare? Yes.

 

[Grim Deadman]

OK thanks. that makes sense, although I still don't get why it wasn't there in the first place. I guess y'all are right and we should just mod it with events.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

I've had some thoughts on this. For one, much like how Land Combat involves Skirmish, Battle, and Pursue phases, Naval Combat could involve Volley, Ramming, and Melee phases. There would also be the following ship types, corresponding roughly to the land units:
Archer Galleys = Excels in the Volley phase
Ramming Galleys = Excels in the Ramming phase
Marine Galleys = Excels in the Melee phase
Transport Galleys = Carries troops

There would also be at least the following special units:
Longboats = Capable of sailing up rivers; limited to the Norse
Fire Galleys = Devastating in the Ramming phase; limited to the Greeks
Slaver Galleys = Capable of looting a Province from its coast; limited to the Berbers
Merchant Galleys = Directly adds to the trading value of a Post; limited to Republics

Civilian harbors would contribute Transport Galleys, military harbors would contribute Ramming Galleys, and army buildings would contribute Archer and Marine Galleys depending on the type of land unit the building contributes (Heavy Infantry and Pikemen adding to Marines, Light Infantry and Archers adding to Archers). Special naval retinues would exist for special units.

Generals are used as admirals, but special traits would give generals advantages specifically for commanding fleets, like a specialization in the Volley, Ramming, or Melee phase.

 

[Grim Deadman]

I've had some thoughts on this. For one, much like how Land Combat involves Skirmish, Battle, and Pursue phases, Naval Combat could involve Volley, Ramming, and Melee phases. There would also be the following ship types, corresponding roughly to the land units:
Archer Galleys = Excels in the Volley phase
Ramming Galleys = Excels in the Ramming phase
Marine Galleys = Excels in the Melee phase
Transport Galleys = Carries troops

There would also be at least the following special units:
Longboats = Capable of crossing open ocean (non-coastal) provinces; limited to the Norse
Fire Galleys = Devastating in the Ramming phase; limited to the Greeks
Slaver Galleys = Capable of looting a Province from its coast; limited to the Berbers
Merchant Galleys = Directly adds to the trading value of a Post; limited to Republics

Civilian harbors would contribute Transport Galleys, military harbors would contribute Ramming Galleys, and army buildings would contribute Archer and Marine Galleys depending on the type of land unit the building contributes (Heavy Infantry and Pikemen adding to Marines, Light Infantry and Archers adding to Archers). Special naval retinues would exist for special units.

Generals are used as admirals, but special traits would give generals advantages specifically for commanding fleets, like a specialization in the Volley, Ramming, or Melee phase.

Neat, although we would then have to make the entire Mediterranian a coastal zone IMO.

In the end though I think Archinorf is right and we'll have to stick to events, since the devs obviously do not plan to introduce the feature into the game anytime soon (CK 3 maybe?). In the mean time I'll snoop around the forum when I get the chance and see if there are any mods out there, if no then maybe it is time to fill that niche.

 

[Sparticulous]

lemont elwood has one of the best suggestions I've seen. We can always hope they do this eventually

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Neat, although we would then have to make the entire Mediterranian a coastal zone IMO.

In the end though I think Archinorf is right and we'll have to stick to events, since the devs obviously do not plan to introduce the feature into the game anytime soon (CK 3 maybe?). In the mean time I'll snoop around the forum when I get the chance and see if there are any mods out there, if no then maybe it is time to fill that niche.

Of course. Also, I realized that I made a mistake; Longboats would be able to go up rivers, not go on open seas. All sea provinces should be coastal. There's no need for the open ones, anyways, with all the land being so close.

For Merchant Galleys, I'm envisioning a system that works like raiding... but in an economically constructive manner. Basically, every County has a "Goods" bar, and Merchant Galleys can be set to "trade in" a port, slowly sapping the Goods; the Patrician who is conducting the trade pays a fee, based on the total amount, to the County owner. Galleys are then able to sell, and that saps Loot.

So, for example, there are two Counties: Aland and Bealand. Aland has 10 Goods, and Bealand has 12.00 Loot, and your fleet can transport 8.00 "units" of anything. So, it takes the following route:

Move from the Sealand Republic to Aland County
Purchase 8 units of Goods, leaving 2 units left
Move from Aland County to Bealand County
Sell 8 units of Goods, gaining 8.00 Gold, and leaving 4.00 Loot.
Move from Bealand County to Sealand Republic
Cash in 8.00 Gold

Both Wealth and Goods take time to recover (as suppliers rush to provide more goods, and consumers rush to earn more disposable income), and terrain/geographical location plays a role; provinces in India or the Near East will generally have higher Goods values in their provinces, but pay less for Goods.

As such, the player would have a strong incentive to make their purchases in the Eastern Mediterranean, and then sell at multiple Western ports before returning home (assuming they are playing as an Italian republic).

Now, where Trading Posts come in is in "protecting" your purchasing and selling interests. Posts essentially reserve a large chunk (one which increases with Trading Practices tech) of the Goods and Wealth for yourself, allowing you to trade without the stress and risk of competing against better ships.

Admirals of trading fleets' Stewardship stat, as well as special trading traits, affects factors like speed of buying/selling and the value.

I know this is a thread for naval warfare, but I just now thought of all this... I also don't mean to imply, through these mechanics, that importation is economically harmful. Don't think of the Loot bar as representing, in this situation, money that's been stolen, but money that the state can tax. It would also give importers a legitimate reason to do embargoes.

 

[Grim Deadman]

Of course. Also, I realized that I made a mistake; Longboats would be able to go up rivers, not go on open seas. All sea provinces should be coastal. There's no need for the open ones, anyways, with all the land being so close.

For Merchant Galleys, I'm envisioning a system that works like raiding... but in an economically constructive manner. Basically, every County has a "Goods" bar, and Merchant Galleys can be set to "trade in" a port, slowly sapping the Goods; the Patrician who is conducting the trade pays a fee, based on the total amount, to the County owner. Galleys are then able to sell, and that saps Loot.

So, for example, there are two Counties: Aland and Bealand. Aland has 10 Goods, and Bealand has 12.00 Loot, and your fleet can transport 8.00 "units" of anything. So, it takes the following route:

Move from the Sealand Republic to Aland County
Purchase 8 units of Goods, leaving 2 units left
Move from Aland County to Bealand County
Sell 8 units of Goods, gaining 8.00 Gold, and leaving 4.00 Loot.
Move from Bealand County to Sealand Republic
Cash in 8.00 Gold

Both Wealth and Goods take time to recover (as suppliers rush to provide more goods, and consumers rush to earn more disposable income), and terrain/geographical location plays a role; provinces in India or the Near East will generally have higher Goods values in their provinces, but pay less for Goods.

As such, the player would have a strong incentive to make their purchases in the Eastern Mediterranean, and then sell at multiple Western ports before returning home (assuming they are playing as an Italian republic).

Now, where Trading Posts come in is in "protecting" your purchasing and selling interests. Posts essentially reserve a large chunk (one which increases with Trading Practices tech) of the Goods and Wealth for yourself, allowing you to trade without the stress and risk of competing against better ships.

Admirals of trading fleets' Stewardship stat, as well as special trading traits, affects factors like speed of buying/selling and the value.

I know this is a thread for naval warfare, but I just now thought of all this... I also don't mean to imply, through these mechanics, that importation is economically harmful. Don't think of the Loot bar as representing, in this situation, money that's been stolen, but money that the state can tax. It would also give importers a legitimate reason to do embargoes.

The problem with trade is that once you go into it you'll also have to solve production, economy, population, etc., all of which is almost completely absent from the game. And while I would love to see all this in the game (man, a global strategy game about Medieval Europe with actual preindustrial economy in it? shut up and take my money!) it is important to acknowledge that it's one thing to implement a feature that is both replicated in other titles and analogous to a feature already present in the game, as well as being relatively marginal in all areas but the Eastern Mediterranean until like the 13th century, however it is much more difficult implement something that should as big as trade. Face it, we already need to model production for this, and I don't know about you but once I sense the scent of blood I'll hunger for an entire economy in the game.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Well, I proposed that system precisely because it doesn't require adding additional ones. It's essentially a mechanic like what should have been in "The Republic," if it weren't for the lazy system we did get.

A more ideal system might allow for ways in which importing nations can make money off the system too, or a way in which goods can be shipped back-and-forth; the latter would also make it easier to prevent gamey tactics like buying a ton of Luxury and promptly reselling it. If the system went all-out, you'd have products in each County, and specific products would get shuflfed along land routes and sea.