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Nadion

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Firstly, really liking DH. Already at version 1.02 it is superior overall to AoD 1.07, whose devs seem to have gone MIA for the last several months.

However, like all versions of HoI2, naval combat still has some significant issues.

1. As far as the engine is concerned there is no difference between a ship being shot up by 4 CAs with an attack of 10, or a BB with an attack of 40. It just registers 40 shots being fired, determines how many hit and applies a constant amount of damage.

As a result I have often seen BB led fleets being overwhelmed by CA fleets.

IRL the 8" guns of a CA would have mostly bounced harmlessly of a BB, whilst the reverse could not be said about at BBs 14-16" fire.

IIRC AoD models with by by multiplying the damage inflicted by a hit by the attacking ships sea attack, and dividing it by the ship beings hit sea defense. The result is that small ships can't overwhelm BBs unless the battle is truly lopsided, and BBs become the terror in surface engagements that they should be.

This, or something else that achieves a similar effect should be implemented in AoD.

2. Carriers act just like ships with really long range guns that can be upgraded. They apply damage against opposing ships sea defense, when really they ought to be contesting with the opposing ships Air Defense. The result is that BBs are excessively resistant to attacks from CVs, and CVs have had to given a much higer sea defense than they deserve to make them survivable in Carrier v Carrier combat, but which also makes them a bit too durable when caught by surface ships.

3. The other big deficiency with carriers is that at present they don't really do much to protect a fleet from aerial attack. Because ships can only shoot at planes that are actively attack THEM, as opposed to any air wing attacking their fleet, the carriers high Air attack is often wasted.

I suggest that an additional combat modifier be added for air wings attacking a fleet, a penalty to be applied to the aircraft when the fleet under attack has carrier support. This would allow carriers to properly fulfill one of their main roles in the war much better than the present system. IRL the defense role of carrier aircraft was more about distracting and disrupting an enemy attack than shooting them done.

If the devs wanted to go fancy, the malus could even change depending on the ratio of carriers to attacking aircraft and/or the allow it to to influenced by doctrine tech.

4. A minor complaint, it annoys be that every fleet with a Carrier is designated as a CTF and won't attempt to close with an enemy fleet even when there would be overwhelming advantage in doing so.

A button to manually instruct a fleet to be treat as a SAG instead of CTF would be great. Another less flexible method would be to say that if the number of BB+BC is greater than twice the number of CV, it will be treated as a SAG.

Some sort of algorithm which would let Admirals recognize an overwhelming advantage in surface firepower and close to that range instead of holding off at carrier range would be great. It would also cut don't on the nonsense where small transport fleets get away from CTFs with minimal damage because theu slipped out of range after 1-2 rounds of combat.

anyway, that my two cents

what say everyobe else?
 
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unmerged(82211)

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Actual Naval Interdiction or Naval Combat Patrol already does that.
You hunt both enemy ships as well as shipping.
Downside is that the British Navy is not really that great at convoy raiding (something like a +10% bonus for it, while the Germans have about 30-40% depending on advancement along the raiding tree).
Yeah, I know, but you see, it's not the same concept.
Once you have a naval blockade, the enemie convoys won't be able to supply that port at all, cause you fleet stay right in front of there...
 

Gort11

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Yeah, exactly. As it is, I can have the entire Royal Navy sitting outside a port and supplies will still flow into that port as long as the enemy still have convoy ships. I might kill convoy ships, but I cannot stop the supplies. Port blockade would do this.
 

Klausewitz

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Yeah, exactly. As it is, I can have the entire Royal Navy sitting outside a port and supplies will still flow into that port as long as the enemy still have convoy ships. I might kill convoy ships, but I cannot stop the supplies. Port blockade would do this.
I doubt that would still be possible in WW2.
Is there any historical precedent of a successful Port Blockade in WW2?
 

unmerged(82211)

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I doubt that would still be possible in WW2.
Is there any historical precedent of a successful Port Blockade in WW2?
I'm pretty sure that the Japs couldn't supply their troops in Iwo Jima.
 

Gort11

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I doubt that would still be possible in WW2.
Is there any historical precedent of a successful Port Blockade in WW2?

Yeah, the entire US Navy plan for bypassing Japanese islands and letting them "wither on the vine" was based around preventing the Japanese from supplying said islands.

Plus, it would mean Germany couldn't conduct Sealion unless they had control of the Channel, otherwise the Royal Navy would quite rightly prevent supplies reaching the German troops in England. Likewise with Overlord - if Germany had a strong navy they could prevent the allied troops in Europe from getting supplies.

As it is, you can supply anything as long as you have enough convoy ships, and they're not that expensive. You don't even lose the supplies they're carrying when they sink.
 

Klausewitz

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I'm pretty sure that the Japs couldn't supply their troops in Iwo Jima.
But that would be, again, also covered via Naval interdiction (and i actually do not remember them even trying, but thats another bit).

Actually, i read both your replies as "No, not as such", since the Pacific was a theatre of a submarine war just as vicious (or even more) than the Atlantic, which would account for almost all japanese supplies sunk and also disturbing any tries to resupply since the japanese codes had been cracked.
But as Surface elements go, i can't remember any blockade apart from "we are here to bombard an island and will be happy to sink everything we see".
 

Gort11

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You don't have to raise a flag that says, "We are blockading you now, merchant shipping stay away!" to be blockading an island. Merchant shipping stayed away from these islands because they saw giant US taskforces around them, then got sunk by subs because they had little effective ASW. These islands were blockaded, it's pedantic to say they weren't.

It's stupid that you can't prevent supplies arriving at a port unless you wipe out the ENTIRE MERCHANT NAVY of a country. In reality you'd sink a few and the others would stay away. In this game they kamikaze through regardless, sunk supplies somehow magically appear on the docks, and the war in the Atlantic doesn't work.
 

unmerged(82211)

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You don't have to raise a flag that says, "We are blockading you now, merchant shipping stay away!" to be blockading an island. Merchant shipping stayed away from these islands because they saw giant US taskforces around them, then got sunk by subs because they had little effective ASW. These islands were blockaded, it's pedantic to say they weren't.

It's stupid that you can't prevent supplies arriving at a port unless you wipe out the ENTIRE MERCHANT NAVY of a country. In reality you'd sink a few and the others would stay away. In this game they kamikaze through regardless, sunk supplies somehow magically appear on the docks, and the war in the Atlantic doesn't work.

That's exactly my point. You put it in perfect words, Gort11 !!
 

son of liberty

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IMO you could have a new mission option ingame called "Port Blockade". It could be avaliable after researching the Naval Doctrine called "Modern Port Blockades".
In this case the fleet assigned to the mission would move to the seazone in front of the choosen port and stay there, so that port wouldn't be able to send or receive any supply through. Of course, as your ships are stationed there, the enemy could engage them, and if your navy get defeated, it will move back to the base port to do the needed repairs.
The effectiveness of this blockade could depend of the ammount or type of ships of the fleet that is assigned to do it. It could count the same bonuses than "convoy raiding" missions get from Naval Doctrines techs tab.


Back to the subject of the first post, I think these are great ideas! Congrats!
LOL, I have recommended that exact mission to the devs already. It is "under review".
 

son of liberty

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Yeah, I know, but you see, it's not the same concept.
Once you have a naval blockade, the enemie convoys won't be able to supply that port at all, cause you fleet stay right in front of there...
That is my hope. The port receives zero supply unless the blockading fleet is defeated and forced to break the blockade.
 

son of liberty

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Well, I'd be stupid not to, given that escort vessels make the transports go from invulnerable to vulnerable!

However, often you'll encounter unescorted AI transports, or you'll destroy the escorts in a transport fleet and then fight the escortless transport fleet later. And it'll be at 200km range permanently and will be untouchable.

Are you seriously saying that you don't encounter this problem? It makes naval invasions very easy indeed.
Ok, you are breaking the game by choice. Don't get upset when you engage in gamey tactics and it breaks the games functionality. I always escort my tp's. As the US, for example, my amphibious assault fleets contain 2 ca, 2 cl, 2 dd and 6 tp. I am trying to get the devs to implement a new mission called "escort fleet" where you can assign a SAG or CTF to escort transport fleets, keeping pace with them as they travel and engaging any marauders while allowing the tp fleet to escape.
 

Gort11

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Ok, you are breaking the game by choice. Don't get upset when you engage in gamey tactics and it breaks the games functionality. I always escort my tp's. As the US, for example, my amphibious assault fleets contain 2 ca, 2 cl, 2 dd and 6 tp. I am trying to get the devs to implement a new mission called "escort fleet" where you can assign a SAG or CTF to escort transport fleets, keeping pace with them as they travel and engaging any marauders while allowing the tp fleet to escape.

Cool, you quoted my whole post and didn't read the second line of what you quoted. Great job.

In any case, exploits should be fixed - if infantry were invulnerable unless you grouped them with a tank, that'd be just as buggy and stupid as transports being invulnerable unless they're grouped with escorts.

Unescorted transports should die. End of story. The fact that escorting transports makes them vulnerable is a stupid bug that should be fixed.
 

son of liberty

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Klausewitz

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Again, not seconded.
The Transports are, quite obvious, modelled after the huge ocean liners used to bring allied troops over the atlantic.
And none of those was ever sunk.
Despite being unescorted.

As for "Port Blockade":
I am still not convinced that a new mission is needed (which on top of everything else would further weaken indirect apporach in relation to FIB) since all you describe can be done with a mix of Interdiction and convoy raiding or even only interdiction.
For me the War in the Atlantic works quite fine:
My u-boats simply sink more than the allies build and whether the supplies are sunk or not is off little consequence if they never arrive.
 

Gort11

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My u-boats simply sink more than the allies build and whether the supplies are sunk or not is off little consequence if they never arrive.

The supplies do arrive, even if you sink the ships they're on. Only if you destroy EVERY SHIP IN THEIR FLEET do supplies stop arriving. This is stupid.

At least you guys have stopped saying that transports aren't invulnerable.
 

Gort11

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Again, not seconded.
The Transports are, quite obvious, modelled after the huge ocean liners used to bring allied troops over the atlantic.
And none of those was ever sunk.
Despite being unescorted.

That's because those particular ships were very fast and were under attack by submarines which by their very nature are pretty slow. Your example is mostly irrelevant because I'm talking about engaging said ships with a surface fleet, which the Germans didn't do.

Even if I had a surface ship that was way faster than the transport in question, it would still engage at 200km and be invulnerable.
 

Klausewitz

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The supplies do arrive, even if you sink the ships they're on. Only if you destroy EVERY SHIP IN THEIR FLEET do supplies stop arriving. This is stupid.
From observation i know this to be untrue. I am quite sure (given that i checked convoy sizes for UK via savegame) that my u-boats do not sink complete convoys.
The African and Indian troops are out of supplies regardless.
 

Serenissima

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If you're expecting them to be completely unsupplied, then yes, you'd have to sink every ship. Study the war in North Africa - the Afrika Korps was getting by on just a few transports of their convoys from Italy getting through, though it meant they had constant fuel and ammunition shortages.