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Nadion

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Firstly, really liking DH. Already at version 1.02 it is superior overall to AoD 1.07, whose devs seem to have gone MIA for the last several months.

However, like all versions of HoI2, naval combat still has some significant issues.

1. As far as the engine is concerned there is no difference between a ship being shot up by 4 CAs with an attack of 10, or a BB with an attack of 40. It just registers 40 shots being fired, determines how many hit and applies a constant amount of damage.

As a result I have often seen BB led fleets being overwhelmed by CA fleets.

IRL the 8" guns of a CA would have mostly bounced harmlessly of a BB, whilst the reverse could not be said about at BBs 14-16" fire.

IIRC AoD models with by by multiplying the damage inflicted by a hit by the attacking ships sea attack, and dividing it by the ship beings hit sea defense. The result is that small ships can't overwhelm BBs unless the battle is truly lopsided, and BBs become the terror in surface engagements that they should be.

This, or something else that achieves a similar effect should be implemented in AoD.

2. Carriers act just like ships with really long range guns that can be upgraded. They apply damage against opposing ships sea defense, when really they ought to be contesting with the opposing ships Air Defense. The result is that BBs are excessively resistant to attacks from CVs, and CVs have had to given a much higer sea defense than they deserve to make them survivable in Carrier v Carrier combat, but which also makes them a bit too durable when caught by surface ships.

3. The other big deficiency with carriers is that at present they don't really do much to protect a fleet from aerial attack. Because ships can only shoot at planes that are actively attack THEM, as opposed to any air wing attacking their fleet, the carriers high Air attack is often wasted.

I suggest that an additional combat modifier be added for air wings attacking a fleet, a penalty to be applied to the aircraft when the fleet under attack has carrier support. This would allow carriers to properly fulfill one of their main roles in the war much better than the present system. IRL the defense role of carrier aircraft was more about distracting and disrupting an enemy attack than shooting them done.

If the devs wanted to go fancy, the malus could even change depending on the ratio of carriers to attacking aircraft and/or the allow it to to influenced by doctrine tech.

4. A minor complaint, it annoys be that every fleet with a Carrier is designated as a CTF and won't attempt to close with an enemy fleet even when there would be overwhelming advantage in doing so.

A button to manually instruct a fleet to be treat as a SAG instead of CTF would be great. Another less flexible method would be to say that if the number of BB+BC is greater than twice the number of CV, it will be treated as a SAG.

Some sort of algorithm which would let Admirals recognize an overwhelming advantage in surface firepower and close to that range instead of holding off at carrier range would be great. It would also cut don't on the nonsense where small transport fleets get away from CTFs with minimal damage because theu slipped out of range after 1-2 rounds of combat.

anyway, that my two cents

what say everyobe else?
 
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alekseevic

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I'd like to have a better naval system, too. And torpedoes now are too powerful. A big subs fleet is a real killer now, also considering subs cost and the AI that doesn't build destroyers with antisubs.

Building battleships has no sense nowadays, but in WW2 had.
 

Oorlog

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These are some great idea's.

Putting torpedoes attachment on submarines always puzzled me since its the main weapon of the submarine itself..
 

Klausewitz

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These are some great idea's.

Putting torpedoes attachment on submarines always puzzled me since its the main weapon of the submarine itself..
Given that the 'baseline' torpedo through WW2 was a steam-heated thing that left a visible bubble trail (that could be spotted and pointed back to the submarine) and had a penchant for failures (the US had it worst with a reported incident where 8 in a salvo of 8 were duds) while there were already much better models available (the Japanese Long Lance modified for subs, for example, with an extremly high speed of 50 kn IIRC and range of 10000 meters for shortest range, or the German TIII with a electric drive going at 30 knots for 5000 m but with absolutely no bubbletrail) it makes sense.
 
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Klausewitz

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Yep. Boni that do need no upgrade runs until 1948 IIRC, then a new type which needs an upgrade run and then gets other boni added on.
 

CzeReptile

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Well, naval combat should reflect bit more reality.
Planes being air attack, not naval one. Ships should get some AA defense, also how about more CAG variety? fighter / dive / torpedo ? Then subs should not be preffered for fleet combat, could be able to evade with ease against carriers at long range and suffer against destroyers.
And many more ideas..
 

D Inqu

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Another thing which I posted in a separate thread, which belongs here.

The development of anti-ship missiles caused a revolution in shipbuilding. Even in the mid 50-s even destoyer ranges increased to 35-40 km. By the end of the 50-s larger ships had missiles with ranges with more than 100km.

In-game, the missile ships should have significantly more range, somewhat less attack (the missiles did not have as much power as the large ship guns) and slighly less defence (armor gradually disappeared from missile ships)

I see three ways of implementing this in the game:
1. Rebalance the late ship designs manually. Cons: very inflexible, cannot upgrade existing ships.
2. Add a ASM tech, like the other missile techs, giving the bonuses/penalties to ships. Cons: instant upgrade.
3. Add a ASM brigade, which gives the bonuses/penalties. Pros: can separate the smaller missiles on smaller ships and large missiles on large ships.
 

Serenissima

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I think CAGs should stay general... it was, by the end of the war, considered pretty suicidal, at least for a larger carrier, to only carry one kind of aircraft. The current CAG - representing all of the different carrier aircraft types available mixed - is the best idea and causes the least confusion and balance problems.
 

Gort11

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I'd like to see transports be easier to destroy if not escorted. As it is, they engage at 200km and never get hurt. Meanwhile, you can sink dozens of THE EXACT SAME SHIPS using "convoy raiding". At the moment as Germany there's really no reason to build a navy of any type except for transports. You can ignore the UK and build nothing, or build a fleet of transports and do the old "drop a paratrooper on Exeter, then rush over all your tanks the same day" trick. Even if you run into a full fleet of 15 battleships with escorts, you can just retreat and try again in a day or so, or even retreat into Exeter itself! Then once you're ashore, it doesn't really matter how many supply ships the Royal Navy sinks - as long as you don't run out (which you won't) the supplies will always get through. There is no meaningful blockade.

There is pretty much zero reason to confront the Royal Navy, or even do the historical convoy raiding - even if you took out every convoy ship the UK had, which is not easy, they wouldn't surrender or really be meaningfully hindered - you'd just make things easy on Italy in Africa.

1. Make unescorted transports easy prey for warships - they should be as vulnerable as any other convoy.
2. Allow fleets to blockade ports so that supplies do not get through.
3. Add "starvation" events to the UK for when it runs low on convoy ships - you should actually have to worry about the war in the Atlantic.
 

son of liberty

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First, I don't think paradox will allow "starvation" events but that could just be phrased differently for the same effect. Like the Baltic closed event for Germany for example. The devs discussing blockades now, but no consensus has yet been reached. I really don't understand the problem with transports. I have no problem massacring the ai's transports. Are you doing something gamey like building tp only fleets with no escort vessels?
 

Gort11

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Are you doing something gamey like building tp only fleets with no escort vessels?

Well, I'd be stupid not to, given that escort vessels make the transports go from invulnerable to vulnerable!

However, often you'll encounter unescorted AI transports, or you'll destroy the escorts in a transport fleet and then fight the escortless transport fleet later. And it'll be at 200km range permanently and will be untouchable.

Are you seriously saying that you don't encounter this problem? It makes naval invasions very easy indeed.
 

unmerged(82211)

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First, I don't think paradox will allow "starvation" events but that could just be phrased differently for the same effect. Like the Baltic closed event for Germany for example. The devs discussing blockades now, but no consensus has yet been reached. I really don't understand the problem with transports. I have no problem massacring the ai's transports. Are you doing something gamey like building tp only fleets with no escort vessels?

IMO you could have a new mission option ingame called "Port Blockade". It could be avaliable after researching the Naval Doctrine called "Modern Port Blockades".
In this case the fleet assigned to the mission would move to the seazone in front of the choosen port and stay there, so that port wouldn't be able to send or receive any supply through. Of course, as your ships are stationed there, the enemy could engage them, and if your navy get defeated, it will move back to the base port to do the needed repairs.
The effectiveness of this blockade could depend of the ammount or type of ships of the fleet that is assigned to do it. It could count the same bonuses than "convoy raiding" missions get from Naval Doctrines techs tab.


Back to the subject of the first post, I think these are great ideas! Congrats!
 

Klausewitz

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Actual Naval Interdiction or Naval Combat Patrol already does that.
You hunt both enemy ships as well as shipping.
Downside is that the British Navy is not really that great at convoy raiding (something like a +10% bonus for it, while the Germans have about 30-40% depending on advancement along the raiding tree).