Naval battle

[Big Nev]

I've run the tests in HOI3, and I can tell you that ultimately, CLs beat SHBBs and BBs when enough are brought to the fight.

Let's just say that 80 CLs versus 6 SHBBs plus 12 DD flotillas did not end well for the SHBBs. I have visions of the lookouts on Yamato seeing the wakes for 160 torpedoes heading towards the ship and, rather than warning the captain, instead composing a quick haiku on the futility of life before they impact.

Firstly…

Where, exactly, did all those torpedoes come from?

What to do about them?

Step 1. Execute a turn towards & comb them.

Step 2. Take maybe two hits near the bow (those that were heading towards your stern now miss as you're not where they were heading and the Yamatos typically absorbed 10+ torpedoes & lots of bombs so a couple of torpedoes isn’t going to be a serious issue)

Step 3. Beat the crap out of anything stupid enough to stay in range or not fast enough to escape.

Although it's a hard concept to get your head around… the thought of a 65,000 ton battleship being able to "dodge" anything, torpedoes (particularly Allied torpedoes) fired beyond 5,000 yards aren't actually that difficult to avoid.

That said... 80 light cruisers to take-on 6 Yamatos doesn’t sound like a fair fight to me. A quick calculation on displacement says 124 DDs. That would be 25-30 destroyer flotillas, not 12.

1st scenario.

Let’s say 80 Clevelands @ 11,800 tons (& give them torpedoes for free) assuming 5 DDs per flotilla and assign two flotillas to each SHBB. Using Kagaros (@ 2,000 tons apiece) that’s 85,000 tons per unit giving 11 Yamatos & 22 flotillas of destroyers.

Even giving them torpedoes that they didn’t have, and accepting that the 5” guns from the destroyers aren’t going to achieve an awful lot against Clevelands, my money would still be on the 11 Yamatos & 110 Kageros carrying the awesome threat of 1,760 type 93 Long Lance.

Granted, the Yamatos wouldn’t be able to take many of the CLs down with gunfire before the rest got within torpedo range, but torpedoes at long range are easily avoided and the DDs would be firing volleys from the flanks forcing the CLs to continually turn to avoid/comb. So closing to close range would be difficult and, for a 600 foot long target, would be pretty much suicidal below 10,000 yards and they need to get within 5,000 to stand any real chance of hitting with their fictitious torpedoes.

End result. The Clevelands that don't get taken-out by long-range gunfire or the hundreds of torpedoes or concentrated 5" DD fire would only survive long enough to get taken out by close-range gunfire.


2nd scenario.

US CLs that actually had torpedoes.

80 Atlantas @ 6,000 tons.

Now we’re only talking about 6 Yamatos & 60 Kagaros.

This is not so clean cut. The Atlanta class, with a broadside of 12, rapid fire 5” DPs (only the first four were completed with the “wing” turrets) would have been undisputed N°1 destroyer killer (as demonstrated by Atlanta herself before being crippled by San Francisco) if they’d been employed in this roll. So they could destroy the screen while corralling & surrounding the SHBBs outside of effective range of the big guns.

I think this would turn in to an utterly chaotic brawl with torpedoes going in all directions as the SHBBs tried to escape & pick-off any CLAAs as they pass through the melee and approached.

The Atlantas though, would cripple many destroyers, very quickly and could leave them behind & impotent even if still afloat. I don’t think this would end well for the SHBBs.


But, the point here is that it all depends upon which ships.

And don't forget that the Atlantas were actually designed as destroyer flotilla leaders so... the scenario where the CLs win is actually a scenario where large DDs operated as zerglings win.

 

[Secret Master]

A wise admiral who has the resources will want it all: big guns, cruisers, destroyers, land-and-sea-based aircraft, mine layers and sweepers, submarines, the whole works. If the game doesn't reward combined arms tactics, then that's a failure of the game.

I'm not sure I completely agree.

Aviation should win out in the end. Maybe not in 1940 (Taranto didn't see the same kind of losses we see at Pearl Harbor or Midway), but the battleship is on the way out as naval aviation gets better.

But I will change what you said to something I agree with: you need the right ship or plane for the right job. Submarines are more cost effective at convoy raiding than surface ships. Shore bombardment is best done with big guns. Mines can be used for denying an area to enemy operations. You need destroyers to counter submarines and screen capital ships from torpedo attacks.

Of course, WWII isn't only fought in 1943 and the Pacific. There's the whole 1939 situation to deal with, assuming the war doesn't start earlier.

 

[Axe99]

I've run the tests in HOI3, and I can tell you that ultimately, CLs beat SHBBs and BBs when enough are brought to the fight.

Let's just say that 80 CLs versus 6 SHBBs plus 12 DD flotillas did not end well for the SHBBs. I have visions of the lookouts on Yamato seeing the wakes for 160 torpedoes heading towards the ship and, rather than warning the captain, instead composing a quick haiku on the futility of life before they impact.

Not to take away from your tests, but the naval combat model in HoI4 looks to be a good deal more advanced than that in HoI3 - isn't there a reasonable chance that the more refined model may throw up different results in HoI4? Of course, we'll be able to find out in a few months' time, and just because HoI4 says something one way or another doesn't make it true .

 

[Midden]

A wise admiral who has the resources will want it all: big guns, cruisers, destroyers, land-and-sea-based aircraft, mine layers and sweepers, submarines, the whole works. If the game doesn't reward combined arms tactics, then that's a failure of the game.[/QUOTE]

I agree with all your points, except the big guns bit in the list .... I think the fleet would actually be better off without them. Cruisers and planes offer costal fire support. The battleships are generally slow, inflexible as to there mission type, un-manoeuvrable, and require at lot of forces just to protect them. Leaving them at home actually free' s up the useful ships from following around there dead weight.

 

[Axe99]

I agree with all your points, except the big guns bit in the list .... I think the fleet would actually be better off without them. Cruisers and planes offer costal fire support. The battleships are generally slow, inflexible as to there mission type, un-manoeuvrable, and require at lot of forces just to protect them. Leaving them at home actually free' s up the useful ships from following around there dead weight.

And yet, even late in the war, all major forces with BBs continued to use them (even when, by 1944/45, all combatants were feeling the pinch of being at war for years - so the financial/resource benefit of leaving the BBs in port would have been tempting). There's got to be a reason for that.

 

[Secret Master]

And yet, even late in the war, all major forces with BBs continued to use them (even when, by 1944/45, all combatants were feeling the pinch of being at war for years - so the financial/resource benefit of leaving the BBs in port would have been tempting). There's got to be a reason for that.

Because there are a finite number of capital ships compared to possible missions they can run? The oceans, the Pacific in particular, are rather large, and navies have jobs that are beyond the missions we see in HOI3.

And the Italians eventually stopped using their fleet for significant actions due to a fuel shortage.

EDIT: Missed these posts:

Firstly…

Where, exactly, did all those torpedoes come from?

What to do about them?

Step 1. Execute a turn towards & comb them.

Step 2. Take maybe two hits near the bow (those that were heading towards your stern now miss as you're not where they were heading and the Yamatos typically absorbed 10+ torpedoes & lots of bombs so a couple of torpedoes isn’t going to be a serious issue)

Torpedo hits on the bow? Someone loves taking on water while trying to steam around the ocean.

Even if it doesn't sink Yamato (and two torpedoes wouldn't), opening a hole on or near the bow of a ship is a recipe for slowing down and spending the next two weeks running bilge pumps.

Step 3. Beat the crap out of anything stupid enough to stay in range or not fast enough to escape.

Although it's a hard concept to get your head around… the thought of a 65,000 ton battleship being able to "dodge" anything, torpedoes (particularly Allied torpedoes) fired beyond 5,000 yards aren't actually that difficult to avoid.

Of course they can dodge. That's why we're not talking 8 torpedoes, but quite a few more.

That said... 80 light cruisers to take-on 6 Yamatos doesn’t sound like a fair fight to me. A quick calculation on displacement says 124 DDs. That would be 25-30 destroyer flotillas, not 12.

Eh, it was CGM in side-by-side multiplayer for testing. Blame HOI3, not me.

1st scenario.

Let’s say 80 Clevelands @ 11,800 tons (& give them torpedoes for free) assuming 5 DDs per flotilla and assign two flotillas to each SHBB. Using Kagaros (@ 2,000 tons apiece) that’s 85,000 tons per unit giving 11 Yamatos & 22 flotillas of destroyers.

Even giving them torpedoes that they didn’t have, and accepting that the 5” guns from the destroyers aren’t going to achieve an awful lot against Clevelands, my money would still be on the 11 Yamatos & 110 Kageros carrying the awesome threat of 1,760 type 93 Long Lance.

Granted, the Yamatos wouldn’t be able to take many of the CLs down with gunfire before the rest got within torpedo range, but torpedoes at long range are easily avoided and the DDs would be firing volleys from the flanks forcing the CLs to continually turn to avoid/comb. So closing to close range would be difficult and, for a 600 foot long target, would be pretty much suicidal below 10,000 yards and they need to get within 5,000 to stand any real chance of hitting with their fictitious torpedoes.

End result. The Clevelands that don't get taken-out by long-range gunfire or the hundreds of torpedoes or concentrated 5" DD fire would only survive long enough to get taken out by close-range gunfire.

Sounds about right.

2nd scenario.

US CLs that actually had torpedoes.

80 Atlantas @ 6,000 tons.

Now we’re only talking about 6 Yamatos & 60 Kagaros.

This is not so clean cut. The Atlanta class, with a broadside of 12, rapid fire 5” DPs (only the first four were completed with the “wing” turrets) would have been undisputed N°1 destroyer killer (as demonstrated by Atlanta herself before being crippled by San Francisco) if they’d been employed in this roll. So they could destroy the screen while corralling & surrounding the SHBBs outside of effective range of the big guns.

I think this would turn in to an utterly chaotic brawl with torpedoes going in all directions as the SHBBs tried to escape & pick-off any CLAAs as they pass through the melee and approached.

The Atlantas though, would cripple many destroyers, very quickly and could leave them behind & impotent even if still afloat. I don’t think this would end well for the SHBBs.

Personally, I think visibility determines the outcome here. Clear day, calm seas? Yamato and her sisters win. They'll be able to see the Atlantas coming and fire on them at range. The SHBBs might wear out their gun tubes and ammunition, but they would get enough hits to whittle the Atlantas down. Poor visibility? The advantage slides to the Atlantas, because they perform better in this scenario at close range.

But, the point here is that it all depends upon which ships.

And don't forget that the Atlantas were actually designed as destroyer flotilla leaders so... the scenario where the CLs win is actually a scenario where large DDs operated as zerglings win.

That was the point of my test, really. I was retesting the old hypothesis from vanilla/SF that zerging with screens was cost effective.

Technically, it is, but with the codicil that really only the USA can afford to zerg with CLs, and since the USA can outproduce everyone in naval terms anyway, it has less impact on the war than you might think.

Not to take away from your tests, but the naval combat model in HoI4 looks to be a good deal more advanced than that in HoI3 - isn't there a reasonable chance that the more refined model may throw up different results in HoI4? Of course, we'll be able to find out in a few months' time, and just because HoI4 says something one way or another doesn't make it true .

I hope there are different results in HOI4. But you don't need to mod out air power. Just set the game up and run head to head with specific fleet compositions like a boss.

 

[Midden]

and... Hoi3 didn't model torpedo's, hopefully Hoi4 is.