Naval Bases as Fleet support/capacity (thoughts)

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Riekopo

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I've been thinking about Fleets and Naval Bases a lot because the way the game represents Naval Bases right now is not very realistic. At least to my layman understanding. I'm not a historian or sailor so I only am making educated guesses based on internet reading.

But the way any size fleet can operate anywhere at any time for any period of time does not seem realistic. The only limiting factor is fuel. And the way that any size ships and any size fleet can be based at any size port also does not seem realistic to me.

I think Task Forces/Fleets should require the support of naval facilities to operate. The reason I say this is because we have this weird thing now where any size Fleet can be anywhere at any time in the ocean and based at any dinky sized Naval Base. And this is just not realistic. Fleets have no supply lines and can stay at sea indefinitely without ever returning to base. No submarine tenders or fuel ships.

So there's no purpose to having the big important Naval Bases like Pearl Harbor for example. The only relevant effect a Naval Base has currently is the amount of ships it can repair at once. So it's simulating the repair capacity factor but nothing else. It's not simulating the fuel facilities at naval bases. It's not simulating the dry docks, the power stations, the maintenance facilities, the ammunition storage facilities, the piers, etc.

Fleets should be supplied by the Naval Bases within their area of operation. By the Naval Bases within their range. The bigger the Fleet is, the bigger the Naval Base capacity needed. So the more ships you pile in to an area, the more naval base capacity you need to supply them. If you go over the capacity in an area then you should start getting some form of maluses and debufffs to the Fleet. Which you would fix by building bigger/more Naval Bases or removing some of the ships from the area.

I also think you should only be able to build Naval Dockyards in provinces where you have at least 1 Naval Base. And when they are built they will be physically located at the Naval Base. If there is more than 1 Naval Base in the State then you choose at which Naval Base the Naval Dockyard will be located. It doesn't make sense that currently Naval Dockyards are randomly magically spread over a province like they are land factories. Naval Dockyards are something that are located at Ports. Ships aren't built inland.

I've been reading about the St. Nazaire Raid and it made me realize that there are different types of ports/docks in real life. And they had different capabilities and capacity. Large drydocks are needed to work on large ships for example. Huge Battleships can't be worked on at little ports without big drydocks. I think the bigger the ship is, the bigger the Naval Base needed to repair it. So a huge Battleship or Carrier couldn't be repaired at a small Naval Base. It could require at least a level 5 Naval Base for example. Heavy Cruisers could require a level 4 etc.

More information; the British in a famous raid blew up the drydock at St. Nazaire and so any large German warship in need of repair had to run the gauntlet of the English Channel to get to a port on the German coast.

I think these changes would also help with the naval doomstack issue as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid
 
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Dalnar

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Ports increase your capability for ship repair. When playing USA I always build two additional ports to max on Hawaii as service depots and also I manually disable ports on all small ports, so when my ships are automatically removed for repairs, they head for Hawaii (nearest port) and they are repaired quickly there.

But yeah, every change that would increase logistic gameplay is welcome for me.
 
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Dalnar

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Hmm I do it by instinct and can't remember now exactly (strange lol). I think it's ctrl + click on the port icon or something like that (not at game computer now). It shows crossed icon of the port.
 
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Frank+Frei

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I also think you should only be able to build Naval Dockyards in provinces where you have at least 1 Naval Base. And when they are built they will be physically located at the Naval Base. If there is more than 1 Naval Base in the State then you choose at which Naval Base the Naval Dockyard will be located. It doesn't make sense that currently Naval Dockyards are randomly magically spread over a province like they are land factories. Naval Dockyards are something that are located at Ports. Ships aren't built inland.
I disagree with you in this point.
For example there have been naval dockyards in Germany located inlands (although still located on rivers) but not in harbours that had a naval base.
Also big harbours like Hamburg with big dockyards to repair ships but no naval base.
IMO this is realistic as it is now.
 
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Snagletooth

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We actually had that to some extent before MtG, where overloading a port was detrimental, and ships were assigned to ports. Having a fleet that needed a size 4 port for supplies assigned to a home port with a size one base would effect it's supply and it's repair.

They did away with that with fuel, becuase it seems that Paradox Devs seem to think every nation had at sea refueling and supply, where really only the US had managed to perfect that, with UK not far behind. Italy, Germany and Japan were still in the stone age of at sea supply, and no one else had really even started yet.
 
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Frank+Frei

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... becuase it seems that Paradox Devs seem to think every nation had at sea refueling and supply, where really only the US had managed to perfect that, with UK not far behind. Italy, Germany and Japan were still in the stone age of at sea supply, and no one else had really even started yet.
Well IMO this is realistic too, as f.e. Germany had their ships supplied and refueled like in 'Weserübung' or the 'Milchkühe' for subs or merchand ships for the 'Graf Spee-raid' or the merchand-raiders.
 

Snagletooth

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Well IMO this is realistic too, as f.e. Germany had their ships supplied and refueled like in 'Weserübung' or the 'Milchkühe' for subs or merchand ships for the 'Graf Spee-raid' or the merchand-raiders.
Yea, in stone age style, by hand..often from reflagged merchant ships, or converted supply submarines. What Germany did to resupply their ships was barely adequate in WWI, much less WWII.

It worked Ok for small groups of subs or occasional surface raider, but it couldn't even begin to keep the High Seas Fleet supplied if they had ever sortied out beyond the North Sea.

Stone age.
 
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Frank+Frei

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Well why should they do otherwise?
No need to if you have a rather small navy and no way to get your supplyships through the Channel.
 
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Snagletooth

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Well why should they do otherwise?
No need to if you have a rather small navy and no way to get your supplyships through the Channel.
Why is a different issue.
I understand why they didn't, just saying... they didn't.

Italy is the same boat (lolol). Their naval dreams were of controlling the Med, Don't really need at sea supply in the Med. Becuase one didnt need to, doesnt change the fact that they didn't.

Japan was bit better and was trying to get there. Im being a bit brutish to say they were also in the stone age, but they had too little, too spread out and still had to do much of it by hand, but they at least had a couple fleet capable oilers, although, iirc they still had to halt the fleet in order to refuel. It still wasn't on par with the US and British nor anywhere near the capacity.
 

Frank+Frei

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I just think if a nation lacks of the need of an oiler 'cause of the small navy size or navy tactical need doesn't mean they are i 'stone-age'. Those ships could have been build or converted easily if needed.
 

Snagletooth

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I just think if a nation lacks of the need of an oiler 'cause of the small navy size or navy tactical need doesn't mean they are i 'stone-age'. Those ships could have been build or converted easily if needed.
It took the US navy 20 years to develop at sea refuling at the level they had in WWII. It's not a simple as craning over a couple 55 gallon drums form a freighter older then dirt.

Some the of sub suppliers were literally handing over jerry cans of fuel using rubber rafts. This was very high risk and would take hours, exposing them to surface ships and aircraft patrols.

The Japanese attacked PH and Midway with almost everything they had. they relied on speed and the elemnt of surprise. having to stop the fleet for an entire day to crane over drums and food is not how you run a large scale fleet.

It is very much stone age.
 
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robobo

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We actually had that to some extent before MtG, where overloading a port was detrimental, and ships were assigned to ports. Having a fleet that needed a size 4 port for supplies assigned to a home port with a size one base would effect it's supply and it's repair.

They did away with that with fuel, becuase it seems that Paradox Devs seem to think every nation had at sea refueling and supply, where really only the US had managed to perfect that, with UK not far behind. Italy, Germany and Japan were still in the stone age of at sea supply, and no one else had really even started yet.

Is there a way to implement this that wouldn't just make the AI US Navy easy to neuter by convoy raiding their supply lines to Hawaii/Guam/wherever the current forward base is?

The general oversimplification of logistics is annoying, particularly for Navies, which can magically operate 5 seazones away from home, with no control of the 4 seazones closest to port but AI is already trash at managing its stockpiles and I'm not sure this would help it do that
 

Captain Palmtree

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An alternative method of the supply away from home would be another version of convoys displayed as oilers, they could maintain fuel supplies to navies away from home once maybe at sea refuelling had been researched in the tech tree. These could even cover all fuel supplies to armies as a way as diversify the rather bland supply system and as a potential target for submarines as a way to cripple a mechanised army or country.
 
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Frank+Frei

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It's not a simple conversion, thats the point.
Well :
20 'Milchkühe' (Type VIIF,IXD,XB,XIV) for replenishing subs,
24 'Begleittanker' (converted merchand oilers),
14 'Troßschiffe' (5 of them captured ships) big supplyships like 'Altmark',
lots of merchant ships 'parked' in neutral harbours to replenish
and a lot more
doesen't sound for me like stone age if you think about the small size of the Kriegsmarine and her tactical role and abilitys.
But just my 2 cts
 
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Riekopo

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I disagree with you in this point.
For example there have been naval dockyards in Germany located inlands (although still located on rivers) but not in harbours that had a naval base.
Also big harbours like Hamburg with big dockyards to repair ships but no naval base.
IMO this is realistic as it is now.

Really? What German ships were built on inland rivers?
 

Captain Palmtree

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Really? What German ships were built on inland rivers?

I think he is referring to the Bismarck and other large surface ships built in Hamburg and transfer up the Kiel canals to they’re naval base. A way to show this would be to simply have the dockyards as they are now but with a restriction on construction to only where ports are present.
 
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