Navajo Westernised in 1627!

[Yxklyx]

Castille and I (Netherlands) are colonizing in the same area of the map so I've been keeping a close eye on the situation there. I'm not sure how long it took them but the Castillian colony they were adjacent too is very new - I think (<10 years old) and Navajo were able to westernize by 1627. Also, how did they accumulate 700 gold?

 

[Imgran]

OK the old westernization process was harrowing and difficult, I'll grant you that, but this is absurd. It is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too easy to westernize right now. WAY too easy.

 

[Pete0714]

When nations have it too hard, people complain.
When nations have it too easy, people complain.
Nuff said

 

[kvk]

Are you sure they completed the westernization? (they still show as western even though they just started to westernize, afaik)

 

[Pugman]

I agree. I can beat that. In 1590 there are 3 North American tribes westernized already. Iroquois, Choctaw, and I forget the 3rd. They're all bordering 13 colonies and are my (GB) protectorates. However, Iroquois has a massive reactionary rebel uprising that looks like it will reverse it. The other 2 seem to be doing fine though.

 

[Yxklyx]

Are you sure they completed the westernization? (they still show as western even though they just started to westernize, afaik)

Yeah, I just vassalized them. I will check tonight for more details on dates. It seems that they started westernization before Castille had a core - if not, then they did it in breakneck speed. It would appear that they saved up their Monarch Points and Gold for the entire game - essentially doing nothing until - Westernization.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The sad thing here is that nobody is pointing out the most absurdly ahistoric thing in this scenario, which is that a European nation was actually bordering Navajo in the early 1600's.

Why complain when a nation tries to modernize? It's not out of the realm of possibility that they'd have done that, had history gone differently. If you're OK with Europe being there at 1627, calling out the early westernization is nonsense lol.

Even in 1.5, it's possible to reach North America and have a huge established colony by the early 1500's (IE barely after 1500 at all).

Yeah, I just vassalized them. I will check tonight for more details on dates. It seems that they started westernization before Castille had a core - if not, then they did it in breakneck speed. It would appear that they saved up their Monarch Points and Gold for the entire game - essentially doing nothing until - Westernization.

Nations will appear western the *instant* they click the button, despite not being finished.

Also, with the reform mechanic, Navajo had to have had at least some time prior to westernization. You can't westernize before reforming, and after doing so you're only 6 techs behind.

 

[Thrake]

Castille and I (Netherlands) are colonizing in the same area of the map so I've been keeping a close eye on the situation there. I'm not sure how long it took them but the Castillian colony they were adjacent too is very new - I think (<10 years old) and Navajo were able to westernize by 1627. Also, how did they accumulate 700 gold?

No. You can vassalize it once it hits "westernize". Now though, it takes 5000 MP to westernize, with 30 monthly MP (at best), it means it will take at least around 17 years. That's not taking in consideration possible setbacks through events, or the fact that usually you end up being short of some kinds of MP, so it probably takes more than 20 years on average.

This, plus the fact that, after westernization, you are western, but have the tech level of your former group. As Aztec, after I westernized, it took me 150 years to actually fill in the tech gap (AI had roughly 10 tech level more in mil than I had). During those 150 years, I was still fodder, because we all know how higher tier units are so much more powerfull... Or are you just complaining that you can't instantly annex any tribe? Conquest of the new world haven't been completed in a couple years you know.

 

[DicRoNero]

In my last game freaking Morocco westenized by 1530s, before my Russia. That's plain stupid.

I think there must be specific conditions/events allowing to westernize before lagging behind by 8 techs.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Wait, you have to reform your government before you can westernize?

 

[unmerged(635163)]

yes, it's actually easier to westernize as morocco than it is for russia. In all my previous muscovy games, I was westernized by 1550 or so. In 1.5, I am barely one tech behind LO or any other western power in 1570. I don't understand what happened.

 

[kvk]

Wait, you have to reform your government before you can westernize?

Only as the Native Americans and the hordes.

 

[TheRevanchist]

At this rate they don't need to worry about westernization mechanic for a possible Victoria 3 since apparently the whole world is westernized by 1700.

 

[Galaahd]

I've been saying this for a month. Westernization now it's too fast and too easy. I wonder how Paradox tested this change and thought it'd be a good idea.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've been saying this for a month. Westernization now it's too fast and too easy. I wonder how Paradox tested this change and thought it'd be a good idea.

Westernized nations rarely if ever accomplish anything of significance. If you don't want them to westernize ahistorically soon, don't put western cores next to them ahistorically early. Those nations will remain behind Europe for the entire period. Nerfing them further is nonsense.

 

[Imgran]

when the game is poorly and arbitrarily balanced, people complain

ftfy

 

[highsis]

The sad thing here is that nobody is pointing out the most absurdly ahistoric thing in this scenario, which is that a European nation was actually bordering Navajo in the early 1600's.

Why complain when a nation tries to modernize? It's not out of the realm of possibility that they'd have done that, had history gone differently. If you're OK with Europe being there at 1627, calling out the early westernization is nonsense lol.

Even in 1.5, it's possible to reach North America and have a huge established colony by the early 1500's (IE barely after 1500 at all).



Nations will appear western the *instant* they click the button, despite not being finished.

Also, with the reform mechanic, Navajo had to have had at least some time prior to westernization. You can't westernize before reforming, and after doing so you're only 6 techs behind.

Agreed. Any nations, historically, tried to modernize once they saw the European powers penetrating their world. Even after westernized, most nations can't catch up because they have spent thousands of MP and they are already lagging behind, which simulate their backwardness despite modernization. I don't understand people complaining about modernization when they can still rofl China that has modernized for next hundred years.

 

[TheRevanchist]

Agreed. Any nations, historically, tried to modernize once they saw the European powers penetrating their world. Even after westernized, most nations can't catch up because they have spent thousands of MP and they are already lagging behind, which simulate their backwardness despite modernization. I don't understand people complaining about modernization when they can still rofl China that has modernized for next hundred years.

I've said this other threads too, but since the last few versions, Spain and Portugal have been reaching every corner of the world super early. Hence the ever popular Spanish Kamchatka.

 

[Galaahd]

Westernized nations rarely if ever accomplish anything of significance. If you don't want them to westernize ahistorically soon, don't put western cores next to them ahistorically early. Those nations will remain behind Europe for the entire period. Nerfing them further is nonsense.

How does your point even make sense?

I don't care if they accomplish anything, the mere fact that everyone and their dog westernize is enough of an immersion breaker.

"If you don't want them to westernize ahistorically soon, don't put western cores next to them ahistorically early." If I don't want them to westernize ahistorically soon, I don't have to colonize at all, and prevent other europeans from colonizing as well...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How does your point even make sense?

I don't care if they accomplish anything, the mere fact that everyone and their dog westernize is enough of an immersion breaker.

"If you don't want them to westernize ahistorically soon, don't put western cores next to them ahistorically early." If I don't want them to westernize ahistorically soon, I don't have to colonize at all, and prevent other europeans from colonizing as well...

You are arguing that only a selective piece of something that happened in history is "immersion breaking". The notion of something ahistorical being immersion breaking, while the ahistorical factors that led to it are not immersion breaking, is not logically sound. It's not like them being "western" changes anything significant unless they also catch up in tech, which takes an eternity. You're basically saying that seeing a nation that never reached an area is fine...but a silly hat next to someone's name? Can't have that in the game! It breaks IMMERSION to think that this group of people MIGHT have TRIED to copy their more advanced neighbors given a situation that history never actually saw. Somehow.

Arguments that cherry pick history selectively rarely hold any logical basis, and this is a good example of that.