"natural" states in the middle east after the collapse of the ottoman empire

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Fishman786

Maharaja
90 Badges
Aug 17, 2009
3.747
2.256
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Island Bound
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
And why do they want to ruin Pakistan? Fine, Balochistan isn't especially useful. But the Pashtun-speaking territories are a good buffer zone for keeping the Mlech out of the densely-populated areas. Without Peshawar etc, there's nothing to stop the Taliban or whoever is in charge in Afghanistan from rolling down into Islamabad, Multan or even Lahore.
 

Jolt

General
17 Badges
May 29, 2005
1.838
343
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
19.231
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
What's up with the enlarged Jordan and yeman?
It's a neo-Crusader-pro-Israel-anti-Muslim-wank map. The people who draw these sort of maps imagine that (their) world will be a better place, if the big "scary" Muslim countries are all broken up and the "harmless" western-obedient countries like Jordan are enlarged. Colonialist post-9/11 thinking, basically. That's why Iran and Saudi-Arabia are broken up. Yemen isn't known for being a pro-western place, but it's currently only a placeholder country (i.e. dysfunctional country) so you can imagine enlargening as a pleasurable thing since it weakens Saudi-Arabia.
 

Gordy

Ex-Senior Full Chairman of the Pedantry Commitee
1 Badges
Dec 16, 2003
2.863
1.912
  • Pillars of Eternity
FWIW, Iran is a multicultural country and a Kurdish state would surely ease up the tensions in the Mid. East.

It would if there had always been a Kurdistan (always meaning from the end of WW1) but right now it would create new tensions before it solves anything.
 

Arilou

Irken Tallest
102 Badges
Aug 24, 2002
8.181
688
Visit site
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • King Arthur II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
To be fair, weakening the KSA is benefitial to the whole Middle East.

It's debatable to what extent shaving of bits of desert would do that though.
 

Andrelvis

The Last Ghibelline
76 Badges
Apr 30, 2006
5.598
9.962
  • 500k Club
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
FWIW, Iran is a multicultural country and a Kurdish state would surely ease up the tensions in the Mid. East.

Iran clearly has one predominant culture though (Farsi/Persian), although with significant minorities. It is no Belgium or Austria-Hungary.
 

Gordy

Ex-Senior Full Chairman of the Pedantry Commitee
1 Badges
Dec 16, 2003
2.863
1.912
  • Pillars of Eternity
I don't think it can get worse than 2 full-out uprisings and constant protests.

Wrong.

Kurdistan both Iraqi and Syrian is currently largely unaffected by the mess in those two countries. Few people are trying to kill the Kurds at the moment.

I can't see Iraq taking the loss of Kurdistan very well. Fortunately they are not in a position to do much about it but perhaps one day they will be.
 

Hibernian

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
73 Badges
Feb 16, 2008
2.379
3.032
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Rome Gold
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Darkest Hour
You know that the Syrian Kurds have basically got de facto independence right now (Syrian Kurdistan), although of course their embryonic state is more frangible and endangered then Iraqi Kurdistan (the two are already allies though).

(For the Kurds that's 2 down, 2 to go...;))
 
Last edited:

Gordy

Ex-Senior Full Chairman of the Pedantry Commitee
1 Badges
Dec 16, 2003
2.863
1.912
  • Pillars of Eternity
They are unaffected precisely because of those uprisings that cut their links with the 2 countries.

That doesn't alter the fact that neither Syria nor Iraq seem ready to recognise them as independent states. It's going to happen (in the case of Iraq) but it won't be increasing the stability of the area.
 

Gordy

Ex-Senior Full Chairman of the Pedantry Commitee
1 Badges
Dec 16, 2003
2.863
1.912
  • Pillars of Eternity
They might not recognize it, but they have enough troubles that they will not pursue a conflict with the Kurds.

I don't expect a war but I do expect increased tension.
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
19.231
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
To be fair, weakening the KSA is benefitial to the whole Middle East.
Contrary to almost every one of its neighbours, Saudi-Arabia is a prosperous country with no civil strife, rule of law*, and extensive social services. I don't quite see why you are singling them out as something other than a force of stability and order, in a region that could desperately need some more stability and order right now.

*not a law I like, but: lex dura sed lex
 

Fishman786

Maharaja
90 Badges
Aug 17, 2009
3.747
2.256
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Island Bound
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Contrary to almost every one of its neighbours, Saudi-Arabia is a prosperous country with no civil strife, rule of law*, and extensive social services. I don't quite see why you are singling them out as something other than a force of stability and order, in a region that could desperately need some more stability and order right now.

*not a law I like, but: lex dura sed lex
They have law and order themselves (of a sort, important Arabs can get away with murder), but they export destruction to other countries. Either they do it as a nation, or wealthy and well-connected Saudi subjects do it on their own accord.
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
19.231
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
They have law and order themselves (of a sort, important Arabs can get away with murder), but they export destruction to other countries. Either they do it as a nation, or wealthy and well-connected Saudi subjects do it on their own accord.
Every nation that feels rich and self-righteous about its values exports violence by the bucketloads. That's sadly how the world works: You support vile people abroad, so they fight the other vile people who dare to oppose your sacred values.

Saudi-Arabia is no worse than the USA (who turned Latin America into a warzone in the name of "war on drugs", and Iraq into a true and proper hellhouse in the name of anti-terrorism and democracy) or the former USSR (for whom no tyranny or rebel movement was ever too vile, as long as they professed to be true Marxists).

Saudi-Arabia has managed to hold its own country amazingly stable and prosperous considering what kind of region they live in, and what a sort of rebellious people the Arab tribes in that region have traditionally been. As a nation-building experiment, Saudi-Arabia has been super successful, and the middle east would be a better place if the more secular nation-building in Syria, Iraq or Yemen had been only half as successful as them.