Native Colonization

[balmung60]

Is this confirmed?

Well, it happened to me when I, as a huge Sioux, starting from North America, annexed the Inca, who were wholly in South America and separated by ocean. This pushed my provinces in La Plata over five and created a Dakota La Plata. Done on a random map, of course.

 

[Gotya64]

No matter what, the colonial AI NEEDS a buff. The smaller ones seem too passive, and are gobbled up by a single tribe usually that then spans the whole continent.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I haven't survived (or failed to survive) my first European contact yet, so I can't talk about that now; I'll post my thoughts on how that goes later. If the AI just decides I'm too "strong" (paper tiger much) and never tries to take me down, it will be disappointing, indeed. But if I had a wonderful game pre-1600 and I have achieved a huge degree of (relative) power and, then, the European AI is scared and leaves me alone... well, that's very reasonable too, because it probably would have happened in those circumstances, and it wouldn't be disappointing. So... it's a complex thing. And probably different people want very different things from the European contact, from "total onslaught" to "assured survival".

Around 1510 in my LP (first video is up, shows the abuse) I have a FL of ~50, no Europeans in NA yet and everything is sealed up into around Canada, which will be sealed within the next couple of months (IE it will be 100% impossible for a Euro nation to colonize NA outside of the Carribean without conquering me). I'll work on staving off the west next while conquering the rest of the tribes and finishing off Aztec (that was quite a war fighting a large nation into TI with a tech deficit, can't wait to show it ).

Edit: I assume that by conquering through Maya I can probably avoid creating an unwanted colony in South America, though I ironically have far less confidence in my ability to defend a choke than I have in stalling out any wars on the mainland.

 

[Peachrocks]

I'll record it tonight, I should have some time (~2-3 hours) and will showcase how to break things in the 1st or 2nd video.

And I agree, natives should be playable differently than how they were in history; after all, they didn't exactly survive with a viable nation. That said, if you can get 30+ provinces (doable before any European power can arrive) you can easily stack up an enormous income. That means that they'll never make serious progress on your lands; mercenaries will just appear behind occupied provinces and storm the weakly garrisoned castles. You can only get to fort level 2 AFAIK (maybe 3 if stacking earthen rampart as well), but the attrition for the AI would be enormous. Also, until it gets tech level 7+ the immense morale available to the player though native ideas, tribal federation, and stacked prestige + mil trad from earlier conquests (plus vision quest to slow decay) can cause issues too.

Heck, I'm not even sure say Portugal would seriously consider declaring if the player puts up a ~50 force limit and has the units to match. In reality, their 20+ western tech units would prevail in direct combat, but I'm not sure the AI really factors that properly when looking at troop counts. If you *really* run away the paper tiger might be too much, I'll need to test that!

In my Iroquois game Spain has declared on me numerous times despite having 3 times their force and I'm westernised but a small bit behind in tech. They called a crusade on me (hey guys let's conquer the holy lands... in a place that cannot possibly be holy for us) and have two times my morale in battle but I'm still able to beat them and get benefits in war through sheer force of numbers. Once I'm more on par with them it's going to get really silly, I've already vassalised England and shrunk them down considerably. I'd have converted religion during westernisation... if it was like it was before but it's much harder to convert native American regions now to the point where you are effectively westernizing twice. So putting up with arbitrary crusades it is... on top of everything else that's arbitrary.

I gotta admit I really don't like how the new mechanics work. Protectorates are totally lame and gamey and give you practically nothing compared to vassal/annex. I can vassal/annex my native american neighbours one moment and can't the next? Why? Because as you would say... reasons. It's not that beneficial to 'protectorate' all of Africa (which is what I'm doing) but I'm out of things I can do because I really can't fight any significant European until I get more morale/military tech and I've had a bunch of 0 and 1 military rulers and because I'm a little behind it's not worth it for me to invest ridiculous amounts of admin and diplo points into annexing them.

Colonies... ugh. There's so minimal visible benefit over having direct control and it's not even an option you get to make and it's even worse in my case because I formed Iroquois Guyana and Brazil (for faster westernisation I came to the Europeans) and allied with Portugal. The problem? The Portuguese colonies keep declaring war on my colonies. If I enforce peace I break the alliance with Portugal who declare on me who are seriously helping me with Spain. I could probably handle it but it's more hassle than it's worth that would not be there if I had direct control over my colonies.

 

[Veta]

I wish there was more incentive to migrate, instead of immediately settling down in the best base tax province and starting to colonize. Currently, there's a negative province modifier upon migrating away from a province - why not encourage natives to migrate with a powerful positive province modifier upon migrating to an untapped province? Combine that with more expensive expansion/conquest and that would encourage natives to migrate around for a while until they've built up cash and have assessed more permanent province options.

I also agree with others that suggest improving the AI natives would make the game more challenging and therefore more fun. Perhaps a humiliation/containment CB triggered by neighbors conquering/colonizing that encouraged natives knocking each other down and burning colonies.

 

[balmung60]

Well, each time you migrate, you leave behind the bonus for integrating its natives AND said natives, so the province's base tax and manpower will increase every time it is settled.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, I'm used to playing as Sunni nations (often deliberately switching), so idiot Spanish holy wars will feel right at home ^_^.

Protectorates seem like total junk; you'd only want them for EZ trade power, or if they're counting towards WC. If they *do* count towards WC, it's probably easier right now than it has ever been before, because you can essentially protectorate over 1/3 of the world regardless of how many/few nations are there, soak up trade cash, then go on a merc-led killing spree in the few areas of the world with anything offering significant resistance.

For example if you pick up expansion ---> protectorate literally all of Asia other than Muscovy and all of Africa, it's literally just a war vs world powers (Europe and Ottomans) to win outright. No coring or annexing time in SEA, India, or potentially even much of Africa/New World at all depending on who you use. Maybe that's what they were going for, no idea. It does make it a little silly westernizing in Asia, but w/e.

IMO after earlygame using ADM to annex isn't that big of a deal, especially claims + ADM ideas (which gives a nice FL boost anyway, and meshes well with protectorate trade power boosting for mercs, which are also good due to the avoidance of WE from direct combat with them).

Colonies on the other hand I find very questionable because of how they can act. IMO a lot of players aren't going to bother with them in their current form at all, unless to move capitol as OPM to make their nation stronger...though somehow protectorates don't give FBR while independent nations might? What's up with that...

 

[grisamentum]

Well, I'm used to playing as Sunni nations (often deliberately switching), so idiot Spanish holy wars will feel right at home ^_^.

Protectorates seem like total junk; you'd only want them for EZ trade power, or if they're counting towards WC. If they *do* count towards WC, it's probably easier right now than it has ever been before, because you can essentially protectorate over 1/3 of the world regardless of how many/few nations are there, soak up trade cash, then go on a merc-led killing spree in the few areas of the world with anything offering significant resistance.

They do count towards WC. That's the whole point of them.

I dont know about the merc killing spree, but once you win Europe you're pretty much just going to run around protectorating everyone.

1. pick ottomans
2. convert to orthodox
3. vassalize electors and get elected emperor
4. conquer colonizers
5. force rest of world in to dependency

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They do count towards WC. That's the whole point of them.

I dont know about the merc killing spree, but once you win Europe you're pretty much just going to run around protectorating everyone.

Protectorate spam should give you a relative stranglehold on collecting trade in certain places though (Gulf of Aden comes to mind as either a collection point or a significant power node, depending). A little bit of merchant hopping and even a modest effort in contested nodes should allow enough cash to supplement an army greatly.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I tested it out later. The AI definitely does *NOT* care about paper tiger. I have 150+ troops while Great Britain is sitting ~50 and they declared . I didn't have time yesterday to play that war out, looking forward to some fun when I get home today. I think I'll just run around with ~20 stacks 2-3 provinces away from their invasion stack (didn't see it when they declared, probably will invade through Maya though since they don't border me directly and they used "colonial conquest").

Now that I see what the AI can do, I don't feel bad about gifting colony provinces to hapless natives after all. GB is running THREE colonists, all of them with over 50% speed compared to the native colonist (some of that probably from exploration though). Still, I'm happy with what I managed to pull off with that one junk colonist so far .

Also, sealing off NA is completely impossible. GB settled down from the arctic into the middle of Canada because I blocked the eastern area lol. Still it's going to get me a force limit of 250+ before any serious building investment, so that's not too bad. It's already almost 1600AD and I still don't actually border a European nation directly to reform ^_^. When I do I'll have tech levels close to 20 most likely. That will probably make westernization easier, once it's available, but now I really am tempted to just hold out, reform into either two or three deckers, say screw westernization and just go in on GB with maxed naval ideas + naval buildings + naval limit.

 

[Gaijin de Moscu]

To those who say that the native expansion should be limited even more; don’t forget that in real life the Aztecs created a massive empire in just a few generations, having come as poor nomads from the North. They used a combination of trade, colonization and conquest to gain massive swathes of land — to lose that all when the Spaniards showed up with their thousands of allies. They were also very rich before the Spaniards cancelled their means of exchange, which is also a mechanic well shown the game.

 

[CyaN]

Also, sealing off NA is completely impossible. GB settled down from the arctic into the middle of Canada because I blocked the eastern area lol. Still it's going to get me a force limit of 250+ before any serious building investment, so that's not too bad.

Well, it can be done, but it needs a fair amount of luck, micromanagement, a dedicated strategy and some skill. For me that's a perfectly acceptable state of things. It can be done, but it's not easy.

The "paper tiger" in my experience works up to a point. I had wars while still not being westernized, but I was able to get out of them by paying some money and as soon as I entered the Western group (while still westernizing) the AI was too intimidated, and too far away, to do anything about me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I meant to say impossible without picking up a 2nd colonist and just using the one from Native ideas...unless there's a way to chain pre-feed someone all the way up the coast? As far as I could tell, that wasn't doable.

 

[CyaN]

I meant to say impossible without picking up a 2nd colonist and just using the one from Native ideas...unless there's a way to chain pre-feed someone all the way up the coast? As far as I could tell, that wasn't doable.

Yes, that's right, you can't do it with just 1 colonist (and the native AI is not going to rush to Exploration anytime soon). No "feeding" exploits that I'm aware of either.

 

[Black_Shade]

If your capital is in the New World, you won't get Colonial Nations, you just get normal provinces.

Not true. You get colonial nations in overseas provinces. I.e. if you as the Inca colonize north America you will get colonial nations, if you as the Iroquois colonize South American provinces you will get colonial nations.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, that's right, you can't do it with just 1 colonist (and the native AI is not going to rush to Exploration anytime soon). No "feeding" exploits that I'm aware of either.

There *are* feeding exploits, to be clear, just that it was managed without them.

You can feed any non-vassal colonies just as ever before, and colonies are trash for war score so you can vassal them before the colonies complete even if the #provinces you gave them was enormous. It's particularly nasty because feeding them enough colonies will bankrupt them and you get an annex speed boost for low stability. On top of all that, it prevents migration lol. I guess if you could scum a coastline with colonies + diplo 2 you probably *could* get a seal.

Not true. You get colonial nations in overseas provinces. I.e. if you as the Inca colonize north America you will get colonial nations, if you as the Iroquois colonize South American provinces you will get colonial nations.

I think if you own through Mesoamerica and have it contiguous you won't though.

 

[grisamentum]

I think if you own through Mesoamerica and have it contiguous you won't though.

Yeah, if you have a land connection it won't be "distant overseas."

 

[brifbates]

Yeah, if you have a land connection it won't be "distant overseas."

This makes me wonder what happens if you lose your contiguous line by having a province get attacked by rebels. We've all seen the colonial conquest CB come and go around the 3 continent connection in the middle east just because a stack of rebels popped up...

 

[CyaN]

Yeah, if you have a land connection it won't be "distant overseas."

Confirmed, I never got an "Iroquois Mexico" when I conquered the Aztecs.

I guess the Caribbean will always be a colonial nation (no land connection possible) unless your capital is in Central America (because that's the same region as the Caribbean, so no "distant overseas"). Also, you can never have a land connection to the northernmost part of Alaska (there is a tiny bit of wasteland between one province and the next, making them non-contiguous); right now I'm not sure if the overseas part of Alaska is 5 provinces big, but if it was, it would be the same case as the Caribbean.

 

[grisamentum]

Confirmed, I never got an "Iroquois Mexico" when I conquered the Aztecs.

I guess the Caribbean will always be a colonial nation (no land connection possible) unless your capital is in Central America (because that's the same region as the Caribbean, so no "distant overseas"). Also, you can never have a land connection to the northernmost part of Alaska (there is a tiny bit of wasteland between one province and the next, making them non-contiguous); right now I'm not sure if the overseas part of Alaska is 5 provinces big, but if it was, it would be the same case as the Caribbean.

Depends on what continent Caribbean is technically on, not region (unless Central America is a "continent" in EU4). You don't get distant overseas with same-continent islands.