Native Colonization

[Thrake]

Indeed, it needs rebalancing. Especially since native buildings are cheap, but greatly enhance provinces. It's like starting as European country with 2 tiers of almost free buildings available. Once you get 3/4 provinces upgraded, gold keeps flowing while your neighbours are still OPM moving around purposelessly. I'm fine with being a hudge blob by the time Europeans come to America with 10th of thousands warriors, I'll need it to survive, but it should not be that of an easy achievement.

A good start would be to just allow AI to form federations (I believe mine is the only one around and it is really a powerfull tool). AI should also use its colonists, perhaps with a decreased colonial growth attached to the native government type to avoid all of the Americas to be colonized by the time Europeans come in. That wuld help native AI catching up with a natie player and keep him in check at least for a while.

 

[balmung60]

So, here's a fun one: Native American tribes can still get colonial nations. So long as they don't have a land connection to them (and maybe even if they do), they'll break away if they colonize the other American continent.

 

[Gotya64]

So, here's a fun one: Native American tribes can still get colonial nations. So long as they don't have a land connection to them (and maybe even if they do), they'll break away if they colonize the other American continent.

Is this confirmed?

 

[CyaN]

I still don't see where's the problem in allowing a player a brief time of glory before Europe comes and destroys all his works. You're all considering North America as a closed world which needs to be balanced by itself so that tribes do not dominate other tribes easily. But it's not a closed world. You just played for less than a century and the real game, the struggle against Europe, has not begun yet.

Show me how you can easily form a huge tribal empire that will be able to fight and beat Europeans whenever they try to conquer you and take the fight to Europe before 1600, and then I'll say "huh, that's probably overpowered, colonization mechanics need some work". But if you think the native gameplay is unbalanced because you easily defeated the Shoshone... man, who cares about the Shoshone? That first part of the game is irrelevant.

The balance needs to adress Natives vs Europeans, no Natives vs Natives. Amongst other things because isolation lasts about a century, and European contact three centuries.

 

[Gotya64]

But as of now it is ridiculously easy to expand as a native; I've even talked to people who managed to mostly shut the Europeans out of North America completely. If you look at the EU4 "Post Your Empires" thread someone posted a Chocktaw game where they've painted America yellow before 1600, westernized when the first Europeans came, and quit because it became boring. Playing as a Native American should be hard, because historically the odds were stacked against them.

 

[Thrake]

But if you think the native gameplay is unbalanced because you easily defeated the Shoshone... man, who cares about the Shoshone? That first part of the game is irrelevant.

The balance needs to adress Natives vs Europeans, no Natives vs Natives. Amongst other things because the second part is 75% of the game.

So, just because there's a good chance I'll get crushed by Europeans, means I should crush similarly the others natives? If I was just interested in pushing back Europeans, I'd simply pick the relevant bookmark. I don't see how your post makes sense. I bought the DLC to play as a Native, so I expect more than just wait 'til they come in as it used to be in EU III, or IV post COP (which was one of the ideas behind COP according to sme dev diary). Why should I struggle to expand anywhere but in North America?

 

[CyaN]

Protip: a game should never be balanced based on "empire screenshots" on the Internet. That policy has given us a lot of stupid changes in EUIV already and we don't need any more.


If you're good enough to colonise all North America in a century (it's not easy at all, they are a whole lot of provinces and you only have 1 colonist, there are few Casus Bellis for the tribes, etc) AND Europeans didn't come until later out of pure dumb luck AND when they came they didn't beat you to death while you westernised (which they absolutely could have done if you weren't lucky enough, no matter how big you were)... well, if you managed to do all that and had a fair amount of luck, why shouldn't you enjoy a succesful game? You earned it.

I don't understand where's the problem you're all talking about. "People can do things in their own games with a lot of effort that reward them later"? Oh my god, quick, call the cops! And the army! It's the end of times!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you're good enough to colonise all North America in a century (it's not easy at all, they are a whole lot of provinces and you only have 1 colonist, there are few Casus Bellis for the tribes, etc) AND Europeans didn't come until later out of pure dumb luck AND when they came they didn't beat you to death while you westernised... well, if you manage to do all that, why shouldn't you enjoy a succesful game? You earned it.

Actually it is easy, and very much so, but requires a very specific abuse that makes 1.3 vassal feeding seem mostly tame .

Hint: The spammed CB is "protect our people in x" .

 

[CyaN]

Actually it is easy, and very much so, but requires a very specific abuse that makes 1.3 vassal feeding seem mostly tame .

Care to elaborate? If a particular exploit allows you to paint America your color as a native with zero effort, then that should be changed, of course.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Care to elaborate? If a particular exploit allows you to paint America your color via colonization, then that should be changed, of course.

I want to show it in a video first though . I imagine it would get old for most people pretty quickly anyway.

 

[Gotya64]

Facing the Europeans as a native tribe really isn't as difficult as it's made out to be, especially now that we mostly deal with their junior colonial nations, which can declare war without involving the mother country. Reforming the government when the Europeans come gives a HUGE technology boost, to the point where you might have to wait to fall behind the westerners again to westernize.

And not that anyone really cares (I do for RP reasons), but in a quote from Johann it's made clear that empires were never really the intentions of the Native Americans: "They have a special CB (casus belli) that allows them to attack any other Native American nation. They don’t claim any territory if they win but they get a lot of power and prestige, basically by humiliating the opponent. They weren’t so much about empire building but having power worked in a different way."

 

[CyaN]

And not that anyone really cares (I do for RP reasons), but in a quote from Johann it's made clear that empires were never really the intentions of the Native Americans: "They have a special CB (casus belli) that allows them to attack any other Native American nation. They don’t claim any territory if they win but they get a lot of power and prestige, basically by humiliating the opponent. They weren’t so much about empire building but having power worked in a different way."

Playing as the Iroquois I never had that CB, so I guess it's only for OPM tribes, just like Migration. If you colonise your second province (or start with more than that) you lose that, and in exchange, you can keep colonising to fight boredom.

If they didn't want the natives to colonise they wouldn't have given colonists to natives. We're not talking about a dubious abuse of an unrelated mechanic here, we're talking about 1 of the 5 things a native can choose with Diplo points. That's absolutely an intended mechanic, and Paradox knows by now that having more than 0 Colonists means that the map will be painted your color sooner than later.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But building empires with improbable civilizations is fun . It's very doable using missions that grant claims, too. In my test run as Sioux:

- Most of the tribes I annexed were on "conquest" CBs, granted by missions.
- 3 of my vassals were from declaring on nations that tried to embargo me.
- Another 4-5 tribes were placed under subjugation with separate peace deals when they joined the war as part of an alliance with the above.
- Nobody was ever in need of any loan, sadly, but that's probably because the native AI sits on 200+ gold even as OPMs.

Edit: "humiliate" CB is OPM vs OPM only, but it isn't worth it compared to expanding properly, not even from a MP standpoint.

 

[Gotya64]

I absolutely love the ability of Native Americans to colonize, but I just think that there ought to be greater modifiers that makes it very slow. After all, the Europeans had huge amounts of money and manpower; they could just send over 300 or so people and build a settlement. The Native Americans were governed by traditions and stuck close to their own tribe rather than spreading out.

Again, the Iroquois are an exception given their unique political existence among natives.

But building empires with improbably civiilizations is fun . It's very doable using missions that grant claims, too.

Exactly! But it shouldn't be easy! It's not doable right now, it's the easiest thing in the world. Creating a native empire is easier than one in Europe.

 

[CyaN]

But building empires with improbable civilizations is fun . It's very doable using missions that grant claims, too. In my test run as Sioux:

- Most of the tribes I annexed were on "conquest" CBs, granted by missions.
- 3 of my vassals were from declaring on nations that tried to embargo me.
- Another 4-5 tribes were placed under subjugation with separate peace deals when they joined the war as part of an alliance with the above.
- Nobody was ever in need of any loan, sadly, but that's probably because the native AI sits on 200+ gold even as OPMs.

Edit: "humiliate" CB is OPM vs OPM only, but it isn't worth it compared to expanding properly, not even from a MP standpoint.

But don't you know "fun" is the worst enemy of a serious EU4 player? Everything fun must be erradicated! Every mechanic that works and improves your situation must be nerfed to the ground!

I've been having a very similar experience in my Iroquois game (yes, I'm the best tribe around by far; if I wasn't, it would be silly to say the least, because we all have similar starting positions, I'm a human and the rest of guys are AIs) but the sheer number of provinces in North America means I definitely won't paint the map my color anytime soon. At least not before the Europeans come.

I absolutely love the ability of Native Americans to colonize, but I just think that there ought to be greater modifiers that makes it very slow. After all, the Europeans had huge amounts of money and manpower; they could just send over 300 or so people and build a settlement. The Native Americans were governed by traditions and stuck close to their own tribe rather than spreading out.

But the "real" native americans 1) wouldn't be fun to play at all, they basically did nothing and 2) would die to the first European nation that arrived, 100% of times. Gameplay-wise, natives MUST behave differently if you want them to be a viable choice for a player.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But don't you know "fun" is the worst enemy of a serious EU4 player? Everything fun must be erradicated! Every mechanic that works and improves your situation must be nerfed to the ground!

I've been having a very similar experience in my Iroquois game (yes, I'm the best tribe around by far; if I wasn't, it would be silly to say the least, because we all have similar starting positions, I'm a human and the rest of guys are AIs) but the sheer number of provinces in North America means I definitely won't paint the map my color anytime soon. At least not before the Europeans come.



But the "real" native americans 1) wouldn't be fun to play at all, they basically did nothing and 2) would die to the first European nation that arrived, 100% of times. Gameplay-wise, natives MUST behave differently if you want them to be a viable choice for a player.

I'll record it tonight, I should have some time (~2-3 hours) and will showcase how to break things in the 1st or 2nd video.

And I agree, natives should be playable differently than how they were in history; after all, they didn't exactly survive with a viable nation. That said, if you can get 30+ provinces (doable before any European power can arrive) you can easily stack up an enormous income. That means that they'll never make serious progress on your lands; mercenaries will just appear behind occupied provinces and storm the weakly garrisoned castles. You can only get to fort level 2 AFAIK (maybe 3 if stacking earthen rampart as well), but the attrition for the AI would be enormous. Also, until it gets tech level 7+ the immense morale available to the player though native ideas, tribal federation, and stacked prestige + mil trad from earlier conquests (plus vision quest to slow decay) can cause issues too.

Heck, I'm not even sure say Portugal would seriously consider declaring if the player puts up a ~50 force limit and has the units to match. In reality, their 20+ western tech units would prevail in direct combat, but I'm not sure the AI really factors that properly when looking at troop counts. If you *really* run away the paper tiger might be too much, I'll need to test that!

 

[Green Abbot]

I honestly rather they'd revise the colonialisation mechanic all together - and have every province already populated. For certain Aboriginal nations, you need to Colonise four or five provinces just to get to the nation's historic size during the game's start. Really, it's more of an indictment of the current colonialisation mechanics.

In single player you can get a monopoly on the New World as Scotland or Ireland or Norway, etc (at least pre-COP, have only played Aborignal nations so far in COP). In Multiplayer it's not exactly much of an issue - same with Aboriginal colonialisation. What the complaints really seem to be is that they're not being challenged locally by their expansion. One possible solution would be for Aboriginal colonialisation to give massive aggressive expansion penalties in relations of other Aboriginal nations, making them more likely to form a federation, coalition, alliances against you, etc.

 

[Veta]

this could be addressed with some specific events that may slow down colonial growth (and maybe at the same time lower its cost, thus simulating a gentle tribal settling).

Alternatively, maybe special "Containment CB" which allows other tribes to burn your colonies. This would add more gameplay to the tribes, as currently I see some folks being bummed out that you can't fabricate claims.

Not sure about the name 'containment' but the principle is smart. The game should actively discourage blobbing where it did not historically occur, i.e. Africa, Medieval Japan.

 

[Gotya64]

@Cyan

Making modifications to the way natives colonized wouldn't affect their viability to colonize at all. Remember that pre-CoP the native tribes couldn't expand into unsettled land at all. The problem is that the AI doesn't know how to use it while the player presumably utilizes it very effectively, which leads to blobbing on the native side. Once you reach a certain size it is easy to just steamroll everybody on the continent, because without a large nation like France or Austria checking your power, none of the other tribes stand a chance.

That being said, I know you mention that the goal should be the ability to fend off the Europeans. Well, obviously it is, but I also want interesting interactions with other tribes while I do that, which is made less possible by the blobbing. As for OPMs getting destroyed by oncoming Europeans, that's supposed to be helped by the migration mechanics. What I'm trying to say is I'm just as supportive of ahistorical empire building as you are, but I want to do it in a plausible way and one that actually gives me a feeling of accomplishment. Right now, it's just an easy joke.

 

[CyaN]

I'll record it tonight, I should have some time (~2-3 hours) and will showcase how to break things in the 1st or 2nd video.

And I agree, natives should be playable differently than how they were in history; after all, they didn't exactly survive with a viable nation. That said, if you can get 30+ provinces (doable before any European power can arrive) you can easily stack up an enormous income. That means that they'll never make serious progress on your lands; mercenaries will just appear behind occupied provinces and storm the weakly garrisoned castles. You can only get to fort level 2 AFAIK (maybe 3 if stacking earthen rampart as well), but the attrition for the AI would be enormous. Also, until it gets tech level 7+ the immense morale available to the player though native ideas, tribal federation, and stacked prestige + mil trad from earlier conquests (plus vision quest to slow decay) can cause issues too.

Heck, I'm not even sure say Portugal would seriously consider declaring if the player puts up a ~50 force limit and has the units to match. In reality, their 20+ western tech units would prevail in direct combat, but I'm not sure the AI really factors that properly when looking at troop counts. If you *really* run away the paper tiger might be too much, I'll need to test that!

I haven't survived (or failed to survive) my first European contact yet, so I can't talk about that now; I'll post my thoughts on how that goes later. If the AI just decides I'm too "strong" (paper tiger much) and never tries to take me down, it will be disappointing, indeed. But if I had a wonderful game pre-1600 and I have achieved a huge degree of (relative) power and, then, the European AI is scared and leaves me alone... well, that's very reasonable too, because it probably would have happened in those circumstances, and it wouldn't be disappointing. So... it's a complex thing. And probably different people want very different things from the European contact, from "total onslaught" to "assured survival".

@Gotya64

The problem is complex. We can agree that the only "unfair" way (i.e. can't be matched by the AI's behaviour) natives can expand is by colonization. They can also annex and vassalize but, well, everyone can do that (and they will do it if they have the chance), so colonization is the tipping point in pre-1600 AIs vs Human tribe warfare. But:

1) If the AI tribes made a better use of colonization in order to challenge the human player, everytime North America is discovered, the whole territory would be covered by tribes. That's seriously not cool; Terra Incognita is supposed to dominate there, for many different mechanics (for example colonial nations).

2) Remove or seriously nerf colonization, and the Native American games become notably slower. And, let's be honest, they're definitely funnier than ever before but waiting at speed 5 still makes up a sizable portion of the gameplay right now. The thing Native Americans do not need, from a minute-to-minute gameplay perspective, is a slowdown.

So... no easy solutions. Honestly, I prefer status quo, even with its small flaws. North America is supposed to be a static place, from a design perspective, and the presence of the player there inevitably wreaks havoc.