Wow, westernizing as a native is hilarious. You can store over 3000 points, hit westernize, and instantly spend them all before they are taken away.
Native Colonization
- Thread starter Gotya64
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???
Only 30 MP per month go into westernizing at a time. You can't spend them all.
EDIT: well, you COULD spend them right after you hit the button, but why would you want to? It would make westernizing take a lot longer...
It is absolutely too easy.
I took this screenshot the first time I saw a European vessel.
By the time they had reached Cuba, I had reached the Aztecs.
I took this screenshot the first time I saw a European vessel.
By the time they had reached Cuba, I had reached the Aztecs.
people already said it, but yes. colonization as natives is really slow, and expensive. yes. u can build tax buildings but its still gonna be a problem.
No, THINK.
If you have over 999 monarch point stored, you will all the points above 999 at the end of the month.
But you IMMEDIATELY get Western tech costs. So, in my example, I stored up 2600 military points (limit for NAs is like 3634 I think?), and immediately spent ~1600 of them on military tech as soon as I westerniized, and only lost about 100, so that I went down to 999 at the end of the month.
My techs only cost like 350, because of my various bonuses. I got 4 military techs instantly. And I was still at 999 military points to continue westernizing. If I hadn't spent them I would have lost them.
Mostly because of the absolutely awful native AI.
I got the trail of tears achievement on my very first try.
The native AI really needs a good buff, IMO, and my first game playing as the Iroquois looked something akin to Slym's Huron game (I actually ended up quitting because I gobbled up too many native tribes and the New World became too boring. Anyway, something needs to be rebalanced, but I suppose that's the nature of big patches
It is absolutely too easy.
I took this screenshot the first time I saw a European vessel.
By the time they had reached Cuba, I had reached the Aztecs.
My Iroquois looked very similar. Don't have a pic because I got bored and deleted it once I started westernizing. By the time there was a cored European province next to me I had an empire reaching from Nova Scotia to Texas with an Aztec vassal.
The problem is that the AI doesn't keep you in check well enough. It's very easy to form a federation and keep early pressure off of you from your larger rivals. Not being able to fabricate claims is not at all a hinderance for the human player because setting rivalries and resetting the missions will usually get you a weak OPM to conquer. The AI doesn't react to colonizing, which snowballs extremely fast. By the time I had 10 or so provinces I pretty much didn't have any more challenges since me plus my other larger allies could wipe the floor with any enemy federation or alliance.
At one point I vassalized Shawnee, Cherokee, Creek and Huron in two back-to-back wars (which themselves were in the middle of several OPM conquerings) and not once did I have a single nation join a coalition against me. It didn't seem right that I could vassalize about 10 provinces worth of applachean nations (about half of them Federation allies) and then have some Great Plains neighbors still be willing to join the federation with me immediately after. The AE might need to be specially balanced for the natives, maybe because there is so much empty space. I dunno.
For my next game I think I'll start as OPM Apache and take over the West first, to give the colonizers some ground and hopefully make the endgame a bit more interesting.
In real life, the Blackfoot (?) and Iroquois had massive empires by the time they had both horses and guns. Okay, maybe not 1530.
Well, the Iroquois were technically five, then six tribes so calling it an empire would imply more centralization than I think is warranted. Personally I think that the Native American tribes should receive tax and other penalties once that tribe exceeds a certain number of provinces, and which increase as the tribe continues expanding until it is no longer possible to do so efficiently. This would continue until the tribe reforms its government. After all, a tribal democracy is hardly feasible for governing vast tracts of land.
It was six tribes surrounding the southern Great Lakes controlling territory extending into the American Midwest and Kentucky Savannah. That's a pretty great feat. But we're talking very late into Native American history. The Iroquois had a central government and constituted a confederacy, not a collective ethnic group over a large area.
Native excursions drew great riches from large territory claims, from trapping and other resources. Not a lot of people lived in these areas, so it would only be hard to hold if the controlling natives stopped showing a military presence and exerting their dominance. At least, that's the case with the Iroquois and a few other First Nations.
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Easy enough to re-implement something like the incapable ruler penalties if you own >9 provinces if they decide it needs to be done. OTOH, it's one of those things of questionable priority since it almost entirely applies solely to single player (is the extra territory going to allow you to crawl out of the hole 7500+ mps on reforming the govt and westernizing puts you in against player powers?)
I agree, the unreformed govt should probably have some sort of size penalties. Maybe not as harsh and un-fun as the old tribal govts, but something. It's pretty silly.
Random world example:
Only just barely losing money with 105k troops (force limit in the high 70s), 20 barques trading, 10 carracks looking scary, 3x +3 advisors, and 2 colonies.
Um, I admit my ignorance. I thought the points stayed with you when you westernized, since that was what the devs actually said. I did a quick game to check and yeah, the points stay with you till the end of the month and then they drop to 999. So I apologize.
True, it is a single player issue. It could also be solved with improvements on the AI (coalitions actually form, AI tribes use colonization and expand effectively, form federations, etc.)
And this issue is also fairly easily addressed by not reducing tech costs until westernization completes and having the points reduced the same day (advance westernization comes before checking points against cap in the monthly clean-up).
As I stated in my last post, there should not be a tax penalty for expanding as a Native American nation. There's simply no precedent for it. Just because they didn't operate like Europeans didn't make them inferior statesmen. They didn't have the technology (e.g, horses) to even traverse great swathes of land. But when they did, Native Americans flourished in relative wealth.
If there's a problem, its with expansion capability and province wealth (no matter who owns them). I'm not really sure just how wealthy the Iroquois got. If it was just a individual wealth, or wealth to run a western state. Either way, reforming the government wouldn't really help in that regard, unless they were making so much that a central government sales and tariffs would make a significant income. I'd think a lot more advanced production and land reforms would be in order to make this Native American nation a juggernaut state. I call the Iroquois Confederacy an Empire, but there's still a pretty massive leap between it and Bismark's Germany, which might be the large Native American state that the game portrays.
If there's a problem, its with expansion capability and province wealth (no matter who owns them). I'm not really sure just how wealthy the Iroquois got. If it was just a individual wealth, or wealth to run a western state. Either way, reforming the government wouldn't really help in that regard, unless they were making so much that a central government sales and tariffs would make a significant income. I'd think a lot more advanced production and land reforms would be in order to make this Native American nation a juggernaut state. I call the Iroquois Confederacy an Empire, but there's still a pretty massive leap between it and Bismark's Germany, which might be the large Native American state that the game portrays.
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That "empire" was forged with the help of, like you said, European horses and guns, and did not reach its height until the late 17th century. In this game it's possible to exceed that by the time the Europeans arrive. Expansion at the moment makes it far too easy.
The Iroquois controlled Kentucky hundreds of years before Westerners even thought about going to the New World, at least theoretically. That's 450 miles away from their closest tribal lands. I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider them an Empire. I guess the Medo-Persians weren't. Two tribes!
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Fully agree with Gotya64 here. This isn't a "civilized" vs "primitive" argument, but the available technology to North American indigenous societies pre-European contact didn't allow the kind of social stratification, specialization, and complexity to support control over groups larger than about 1000 people, or large geographic areas. Basically everyone was involved in food production in one way or the other, save for perhaps a couple chiefs or religious leaders. There needs to be some balancing to put limits on how far and how quickly native 'colonization' can proceed, and I agree that limits to the tribal democracy government type are probably the best channel to achieve this.