Native Colonization

[Gotya64]

I'd like to start off by complimenting Paradox; this expansion is fantastic and probably has guaranteed another 150+ hours of playing for me!

Anyway, I'm playing as the Iroquois Confederation and I selected the native idea "Clan Migrations," which allows the tribe to colonize unsettled regions that neighbor my own. However, it occurred to me that without limits this can be greatly abused (if there are in fact limits, shoot me now and delete this thread). After all, what's stopping me from painting the whole map green if I can just colonize all the unsettled regions? Not to mention how pissed off Europe is going to be when they get here.

Personally I think that the Native American tribes should receive large tax and other penalties once that tribe exceeds a certain number of provinces, and which increase as the tribe continues expanding until it is no longer possible to do so efficiently. In addition, a Native American tribe should only be allowed to use colonization to expand up to four or so provinces. This would continue until the tribe reforms its government. After all, a tribal democracy is hardly feasible for governing vast tracts of land.

The AI is also in need of improvement here, as it almost never colonizes itself and is very bad at expanding. Through two games I have yet to see a tribe "settle down" and begin expanding.

(On a side note, PDox ought to make an achievement called "Last of the Mohicans," where you have to survive as the Lenape until the end of the game. But I digress.).

(On a second side note, my second Chief of the Confederacy's name is Joonondauwanonch Dayoitgao )

 

[balmung60]

The main impediment is that colonizing is slow and expensive (and exponentially moreso for each colony over your number of colonists). Oh, but if you want crazy expansion, take Exploration as your first idea. Two more colonists, much faster colonization, and a free, universal CB with low costs and AE on every single other tribe, and conquistadors.

 

[Thd777]

First post. Oh my...

Anyway, what you are missing is that you "migrate", meaning you are giving up your original province. No way to paint the map that way. One additional limit is that the migration has a time limit, you can only migrate every X years (not sure about the number).
Ciao
TD

 

[Gotya64]

First post. Oh my...

Anyway, what you are missing is that you "migrate", meaning you are giving up your original province. No way to paint the map that way. One additional limit is that the migration has a time limit, you can only migrate every X years (not sure about the number).
Ciao
TD

So far as the Iroquois I've colonized three provinces in the span of about thirty years, no migration necessary. The migration mechanic you refer to applies only to one province native nations.

 

[balmung60]

So far as the Iroquois I've colonized three provinces in the span of about thirty years, no migration necessary. The migration mechanic you refer to applies only to one province native nations.

3 provinces in 30 years is kind of what I was talking about. That's not nearly fast enough to keep the Spaniards and Portuguese out.

 

[Gotya64]

Certainly not enough to turn the tide of the Europeans, but easily enough to completely dominate all neighboring native tribes

 

[Negru Voda]

this could be addressed with some specific events that may slow down colonial growth (and maybe at the same time lower its cost, thus simulating a gentle tribal settling).

Alternatively, maybe special "Containment CB" which allows other tribes to burn your colonies. This would add more gameplay to the tribes, as currently I see some folks being bummed out that you can't fabricate claims.

 

[Varus90]

I just took the Pawnee and have settled about five provinces in thirty years myself, not including the one I diplo-annexed. It's shockingly fast, really, not that I'm complaining, and probably not enough to defeat any real colonial powers...but I'm only trying to grow large enough to become neighbor to a European nation and reform the government.

 

[Alblaka]

I agree that the casual Western Style of 'Colonizing' empty lands is pretty dull. It takes a (initially considerable!) flow of money and some time (from which you got fairly enough, native gameplay is still really slow) and plopp new land.
On the other hand, nations with more then 1 province (aka unable to migrate) definitely need the mechanic for expansion.

Some solutions:
-Make it even slower. Meh, would work, but make it even more dull.
-Make the colonies (upon completion) into automatic, autonomous 1-province nations (which, however, get a diplo bonus of +100 (like released in peace), and a truce. Maybe add a +50 modifier for vassalization, as well. Aka, the tribes send a few man to found a new independant tribe and then later have to annex/conquer it.
-Add more variety and difficulty to colonizing. F.e. 'Your colonizing actions have lead to a federation of native tribes forming a rival nation = Creates a autonomous nation in a neirboughring province which is outright hostile. Or some way for other nearby nations to interfer with colonizing (I figure a colony-ish camp would make a great raid target).

 

[Gotya64]

Another solution would be to prevent further colonization after a tribe reaches a certain size, maybe at 4 provinces.

 

[Rubidium]

Not sure why we really need to nerf native colonization; you'll need the size when the Europeans come.

 

[Lightning4]

I have to wonder... what happens if a native nation goes colonizing in a distant colonial region?

Do they get colonial nations too? And if so, how do they access them, I'm under the impression that the colonial and native tab are the same.

If nobody answers, I'll probably find an answer soon enough. I'm an exploration focused, colonizing-crazy Pima... I can probably get access to South America, if I wanted it.

 

[TheBloke]

I have to wonder... what happens if a native nation goes colonizing in a distant colonial region?

Do they get colonial nations too? And if so, how do they access them, I'm under the impression that the colonial and native tab are the same.

If nobody answers, I'll probably find an answer soon enough. I'm an exploration focused, colonizing-crazy Pima... I can probably get access to South America, if I wanted it.

If your capital is in the New World, you won't get Colonial Nations, you just get normal provinces.

 

[ramius3443]

I spy a problem with the Trail of Tears achievement surfacing....

 

[CyaN]

Not sure why we really need to nerf native colonization; you'll need the size when the Europeans come.

This.

Easily dominating North American tribes thanks to colonization doesn't matter at all, because a native american game starts when the Europeans arrive. Before that, the "prologue" of the game (which lasts less than a century) is just about having something to do in order not to die of boredom (as happened pre-CoP) and feeling that you are somehow advancing, even if your achievements are pathethic in the great scope of things (and dedicating your nation resources to colonizing 1 more province every decade is truly pathetic). Colonization is a wonderful mechanic for that, and its effects in the "real game", post-European contact, are almost negligible because you're still a freaking native and everyone will kick your ass. You will just have some more provinces to lose.

 

[grisamentum]

Certainly not enough to turn the tide of the Europeans, but easily enough to completely dominate all neighboring native tribes

It is easily enough to keep all the Europeans out of most of the map. Very first attempt as Cherokee I have the entire thirteen colonies before the British have a colonial nation in newfoundland or the spanish even have florida.

 

[grisamentum]

I spy a problem with the Trail of Tears achievement surfacing....

the problem being what?

 

[TheBloke]

It is easily enough to keep all the Europeans out of most of the map. Very first attempt as Cherokee I have the entire thirteen colonies before the British have a colonial nation in newfoundland or the spanish even have florida.

But can you keep it after they arrive? Are they not DOWing you?

 

[grisamentum]

But can you keep it after they arrive? Are they not DOWing you?

So far no, even though England rivaled me at first. Colonial nation is too wimpy and I have 50+ forcelimit. I was way behind in tech but then I colonized next to Newfoundland and reformed government; instantly got 22 techs (~7 in each category) which put me nearly on par. Actually waiting to fall behind more to westernize now.

Reforming my government actually slowed down my interior expansion a lot. I lost a lot of Diplo Rep from my native ideas and native buildings, so annexation is slow, and my forcelimits actually plummeted from like 75 to 50. And my reformed Cherokee became a feudal monarchy (what?) with 0 legitimacy. I had figured I was going to get a noble republic since I was a democracy.

Spain did put a colony in Louisiana but I got involved in a weird way and stole it. I was afraid of England so I guaranteed them and was trying to play nice, and then Scotland attacked England and called me in; Scotland was allied to Spain who joined, so I snapped up the colony while it was still a colony. Since then they've stayed in the Caribbean (nothing on Florida yet). Portugal hasn't come either; it's about 1550.

 

[brifbates]

But can you keep it after they arrive? Are they not DOWing you?

This is indeed the question, along with if they DoW are they actually able to fight you. I know when I played Morocco the Iberians were hell-bent on attacking me on truce expiration. I doubt the ai will be more reluctant to attack a native nation, no matter how large, when they are perfectly willing to attack a muslim nation that is much more competitive technologically.