Nations for the Judaism and Zoroastrianism faiths

[DaDerpyDude]

As you probably know, there are two one province religions in this game: Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Now, should one of these religions convert (Very unlikely to happen not on purpose, but could be fun to do it deliberately, like playing a shamanist sweden) the nations they are present in (Ethiopia and Timurids at the start of the game, respectively) they should have special decisions to form nations:

For a jewish nation:

RESTORE THE [united] KINGDOM OF ISRAEL

"In the ancient times, the jewish have held a properous kingdom in the southern levant. They have been banished by the Babylonians and returned after Cyrus the great of the Achaemenid empire has conquered their land from Babylon. Now, 1500 years after their second banishment, by the romans, they have once again returned to their homeland and restored their ancient kingdom."

Condition:
State religion is Judaism

Requirements:
Owns Jerusalem, Gaza, Naabulus, Sidon, Ajlun and Al Karak.
Has cores on Jerusalem, Gaza, Naabulus and Sidon.
The religion in Jerusalem is Jewish.

Effects:
Changes name to "Kingdom of Israel"
Changes goverment to "Judean Monarchy" (+10% missionary strength +30% manpower cap) (Basically a theocracy but with the heir being via dynasty and not via event) (Gets a unique diaspora return mechanic which ill do tomorrow)
Moves capital to Jerusalem.
Changes national ideas to this: http://extended-timeline.wikia.com/wiki/Israel
Gain 25 prestige
Changes opinion towards you of the Achaemenid empire (If exists) by +50
For the rest of the campaign gets the following effects:
+2 Yearly Prestige

For a zoroastrian nation:


RECLAIM THE MIDDLE EAST

"The zoroastrian religion once extended all the way from greece to india, in the form of a glorious empire, the biggest until it's time, the empire has fallen but was re-constituted a few hundred years later until the muslims conquered persia. Now the zoroastrians have restored their nation to it's great extent, and once again rule a powerful empire."

Condition:
State religion is zoroastrian
Persia does not exist

Requirements:
Owns and has cores on Kuzestan, Hamadan, Shiraz, Hillah, Thessaloniki, Derajat, Gharbeyya, Darnah and Balkh.

Effects:
Changes name to "Persian Empire"
Changes the national ideas (I'll do them later, you can suggest some in the comments)
Changes goverment to Feudal Monarchy
Changes to Muslim or Eastern (I'm not sure which) tech group.
Changes goverment rank to Empire
Gain 50 prestige
Gain claims on the Persian, Middle east, Greek and Cyrenaica regions.
For the rest of the campaign get the following effects:
-95% Accepted culture threshold (Too much? Historically the Achaemenid empire was very tolerent)
+3 Tolerence of Heathens
+45% Administrative efficiency




Leave your suggestions and thoughts below.

 

[DaDerpyDude]

Missionarie bonus makes no sense for a jewish nation.

It's not usual to become Hew by converting. You are mostly born a jew as far as I know.

So Isreal should have a malus.

According to what i read and know, there are a couple thousand judaism converts a year, and there have been a couple of forced conversions by jews in biblical times.

I could change it to make it harder to convert jewish provinces, but it is already a bonus from being jewish.

 

[Liquid Ghost]

Sure they have converts, but for the most part Jews are born an not made. That's one of the main reasons why Christianity really took off: it offered salvation to the gentiles, the "non-chosen" people. Spreading the jewish faith has never been a core concept of Judaism; keeping the faith on the other hand...

In my opinion, what this Israelite kingdom would require is a new culture group, and a special unique mechanic. Culture might be Semite, maybe? Then the Jewish nations would have the unique feature of changing both faith and culture by doing a culture conversion to Semite, that is to say, you aren't spreading the faith among the locals, you are bringing back the people to the land and making them the new majority. That mechanic could very well be called Zionism. It would only work in select provinces around the Middle East and it would cost more than a regular culture conversion.

 

[Woifee]

I'm not sure what culture conversion in the game should represent. Is it just exchange the ruling class and bureaucracy to people of your culture ore is it teaching the people the proper way to talk and dance or is it a genocide. The first and the third one are things you could command with a mouse click.

Spreading your faith with a semite culture would also only work with first and last one.

If culture conversion is really a genozide the province should lose a lot of development.

Jewish people in europe mostly took over the language and customs of the country they lived in, so a semite culture wouldn't fit. Maybe a cultural union of all european and near east cultures for your kingdom

 

[DaDerpyDude]

Sure they have converts, but for the most part Jews are born an not made. That's one of the main reasons why Christianity really took off: it offered salvation to the gentiles, the "non-chosen" people. Spreading the jewish faith has never been a core concept of Judaism; keeping the faith on the other hand...

In my opinion, what this Israelite kingdom would require is a new culture group, and a special unique mechanic. Culture might be Semite, maybe? Then the Jewish nations would have the unique feature of changing both faith and culture by doing a culture conversion to Semite, that is to say, you aren't spreading the faith among the locals, you are bringing back the people to the land and making them the new majority. That mechanic could very well be called Zionism. It would only work in select provinces around the Middle East and it would cost more than a regular culture conversion.

I'm not sure what culture conversion in the game should represent. Is it just exchange the ruling class and bureaucracy to people of your culture ore is it teaching the people the proper way to talk and dance or is it a genocide. The first and the third one are things you could command with a mouse click.

Spreading your faith with a semite culture would also only work with first and last one.

If culture conversion is really a genozide the province should lose a lot of development.

Jewish people in europe mostly took over the language and customs of the country they lived in, so a semite culture wouldn't fit. Maybe a cultural union of all european and near east cultures for your kingdom

I think the best thing would be to do, like suggested in the first comment, a diaspora return mechanic which will give you ideas from the places the diaspora returns from and westernize you.

It should also have a special, "flexible" culture just called "Jewish".

Additionally, besides the ideas from the jewish communities in each nation, there should be something including the three main jewish divisions: Shepardi (Jews who are the descendents of the jews who were banished from spain in 1492. Would make the banishment very significant, as it was during the game's time frame.) Mizrahi jews (From the muslim/arab states in the middle east, persia and the caucasus mainly) and Ashkenazi jews (About 80% of all jews, basically all of the non-shepardi european jews, especially germans, russians and poles). Like maybe the three divisions trying to contest each other, with events such as "Interdivisional marraige", "*Division* demands support", "Racism against *Division*". Also some mechanic of power between the divisions, and maybe an option to unify the judaism divisions, like unifying the islam.

 

[Hipster_on_Ice]

It should also have a special, "flexible" culture just called "Jewish".

There's the CK2 route, just making a culture just called "Israelite" or something to that effect. It's not really a realistic prospect, though.

Like maybe the three divisions trying to contest each other, with events such as "Interdivisional marraige", "*Division* demands support", "Racism against *Division*". Also some mechanic of power between the divisions, and maybe an option to unify the judaism divisions, like unifying the islam.

If anything, the divisions in the Jewish diaspora is much less like denominations or schisms as it is ethno-linguistic differences. The doxology is essentially the same amongst the groups (there is the whole question of orthodoxy, but that being largely a modern thing) rather than anything being theologically different between the Sephardim and the Mizrahim. That being said, I don't know a whole lot about the non-Ashkenazi Jews, but I do know that largely Jewish identity isn't predicated so much on strict doxology as it is by community and history.

I think that largely the problem would come with the anachronism of the idea of Zionism, and the degree of assimilation of many Eastern and Central European Jewish communities in the period. Certainly there was violence, there were pogroms, there were other things that weren't great about being a Jew in late-medieval through early modern Europe, but the communities were fairly large, and there was a distinct culture and Yiddish identity. Really the emergence of Zionism was linked intrinsically with the emergence of nationalism, so it would be rather anachronistic for the majority of the period to attempt to model such a thing going on.

(Also, in modern Israel, the group of Jews that's probably faced the largest amount of discrimination has been the Ethiopian Jews.)

 

[DaDerpyDude]

There's the CK2 route, just making a culture just called "Israelite" or something to that effect. It's not really a realistic prospect, though.



If anything, the divisions in the Jewish diaspora is much less like denominations or schisms as it is ethno-linguistic differences. The doxology is essentially the same amongst the groups (there is the whole question of orthodoxy, but that being largely a modern thing) rather than anything being theologically different between the Sephardim and the Mizrahim. That being said, I don't know a whole lot about the non-Ashkenazi Jews, but I do know that largely Jewish identity isn't predicated so much on strict doxology as it is by community and history.

I think that largely the problem would come with the anachronism of the idea of Zionism, and the degree of assimilation of many Eastern and Central European Jewish communities in the period. Certainly there was violence, there were pogroms, there were other things that weren't great about being a Jew in late-medieval through early modern Europe, but the communities were fairly large, and there was a distinct culture and Yiddish identity. Really the emergence of Zionism was linked intrinsically with the emergence of nationalism, so it would be rather anachronistic for the majority of the period to attempt to model such a thing going on.

(Also, in modern Israel, the group of Jews that's probably faced the largest amount of discrimination has been the Ethiopian Jews.)

In-game you would be likely to form israel as ethiopia, so no discrimination probably.

 

[Durnilhas]

Jerusalem was a cristian kingdom... It never was a jewish kingdom or country. Why not convert as an existing country, but you can't form a historical country because you have the jew religion. It's a fictionnal "kingdom".

Futhermore Israel born in 1948, why speaking of israeli or israel country in a game wich end in 1800?

 

[metallicania]

So Spain banishes all the jews and gets no penalty but Ottomans give them home and get -50 because... Reasons?

 

[DaDerpyDude]

Jerusalem was a cristian kingdom... It never was a jewish kingdom or country. Why not convert as an existing country, but you can't form a historical country because you have the jew religion. It's a fictionnal "kingdom".

Futhermore Israel born in 1948, why speaking of israeli or israel country in a game wich end in 1800?

You could say the ancient united kingdom of israel was fictional, however, there was indeed a jewish kingdom in israel between 140 and 63 BC and denying it's existence is like denying the existence of the macedonian (to be exact, the seleucid) empire.

 

[TheG-Man98]

Ya i know about the problems with christians, forced conversions, persecutions, they have been banished from castille from what i know. Knew they were accepted in morocco, didn't know about the other countries, now that i have checked, i'll remove it.


Boni?

It seems like bonuses is the correct english form

 

[Durnilhas]

You could say the ancient united kingdom of israel was fictional, however, there was indeed a jewish kingdom in israel between 140 and 63 BC and denying it's existence is like denying the existence of the macedonian (to be exact, the seleucid) empire.

I know somes thing about hasmonean theocracy. So yes sure i will still deny the "kingdom" existence.
I don't want to offend you but we are not speaking about the same think. You are all still speaking about a fictionnal "historical" formable Kingdom with Judaism as main religion. Futhermore i see many speaking about an "israeli" culture or a country such as "Israel". There is an Israel land in the Torah but i never seen any Kingdom or any Country between Hasmonean and Israel. Or, to be clear, there is nothing between 63BC and 1948 : 2000 year.
What i tried to explain is there is no similarity with the "country" that born BC and the Kingdom you are all asking about.
There is no reason to put such country in eu4. But there is many in Europa universalis Rome. Or HOI for Israel.

With your logic we should put URSS, China, Sparte or even Seleucid Empire why not. But there is none of them because they have no reason to be in eu4, it's still a pretty historical accurate game.
It's medieval age don't mix period.

Why not put it in a mod suggestion or just check the mod list it doesn't exist? I'm sure there is something that give what you want. You can even do it by yourself, it's easy to make a new formable country with some requirement and effect. With new dlc you can even invent a new governement form with his own rules, his own bonus and own progression system.

 

[Hipster_on_Ice]

...

Your claim that a game that goes as entirely off the rails historically as EU4 does is historically accurate, it's really kind of a silly thing to say.

I think the main cause behind the desire to be able to form Israel is that you can actually form Israel in CK2, which is just an unlikely thing you can do as a Jewish character. CK2's reformed Kingdom of Israel even has its own national ideas if you use the CK2 to EU4 converter. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that it is a fictional entity, for all intents and purposes. What they are saying is that, like the Crusaders' Kingdom of Jerusalem that you can form as the Knights or Cyprus, they want to also be able to form the Kingdom of Israel as a Jewish nation (however unlikely that may be).

Really, the only major problem that I see with that is that it would require the addition of another tag, which would slow the game down further. People like a challenge, and nothing really says challenge like conquering the entire Levant as a Sub-Saharan African OPM that you can only play as if you release them as a vassal.

 

[Durnilhas]

I understand what you want.
But CK2 have plenty of fictional and "wanted to be" formable empire and country if i remember well. It's because the game rely on realm title and the purpose is to form someting. It's not the same game and futhermore the converter turn the savegame as a "modded savedgame" http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Europa_Universalis_4_Save_Converter
I will add that the converter was a mod before paradox announce it as an official feature for eu4.

There is a reason for the decision of forming the Kingdom of jerusalem. It existed up to 1291 (wikipedia :/) and last 200 year, it has huge impact of crusade, it was the most important one. It fall 150y before the start of eu4. There is knights ans cyprus kingdom remainging from crusade. Why not reform another one ^^
Futhermore it's not the same country. According to the official wiki http://www.eu4wiki.com/National_ideas#Jerusalem you can identify two country of "Jerusalem" :

• a "real", historical formable country with is own idea
• the modded savegame compatible one with a little stronger idea.

So the conclusion is : the game don't let us form fictionnal country. Yes there is a Jerusalem kingdom in EU4 because it has some reason to be there. It's how eu4 work, the converter is not eu4 but it let you bring your game, it's a mod. No other country from ck2 are formable.
You can still have this country in game !! In a mod. As player you can do it by yourself ^^ because paradox did awesome work to have mod easy to do.

 

[Hipster_on_Ice]

I'm not advocating or opposing it, I'm just saying that there are plenty of other things in the game that are just as unlikely. One more fanciful or fictional tag doesn't ruin the game forever. Also the EU4 converter was a preorder reward, it's been out for as long as EU4 has.

Additionally, the idea that the Knights of Rhodes or Cyprus could reform the long-since fallen kingdom of Jerusalem is just as absurd as Beta Israel forming the Levantine state of Israel. The fall of Rhodes to the Ottomans in 1522 and the fall of Cyprus to the Venetians in 1489 make that point nearly indisputable.

 

[Woifee]

I understand what you want.
But CK2 have plenty of fictional and "wanted to be" formable empire and country if i remember well. It's because the game rely on realm title and the purpose is to form someting. It's not the same game and futhermore the converter turn the savegame as a "modded savedgame" http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Europa_Universalis_4_Save_Converter
I will add that the converter was a mod before paradox announce it as an official feature for eu4.

There is a reason for the decision of forming the Kingdom of jerusalem. It existed up to 1291 (wikipedia :/) and last 200 year, it has huge impact of crusade, it was the most important one. It fall 150y before the start of eu4. There is knights ans cyprus kingdom remainging from crusade. Why not reform another one ^^
Futhermore it's not the same country. According to the official wiki http://www.eu4wiki.com/National_ideas#Jerusalem you can identify two country of "Jerusalem" :

• a "real", historical formable country with is own idea
• the modded savegame compatible one with a little stronger idea.

So the conclusion is : the game don't let us form fictionnal country. Yes there is a Jerusalem kingdom in EU4 because it has some reason to be there. It's how eu4 work, the converter is not eu4 but it let you bring your game, it's a mod. No other country from ck2 are formable.
You can still have this country in game !! In a mod. As player you can do it by yourself ^^ because paradox did awesome work to have mod easy to do.

There are fictional kingdoms in EU4:

First example that comes to my head: Kingdom of Ireland.

edit: And Scandinavia. (or is it an empire?)

 

[talilu]

It being fictional is not the problem I guess, what bothers me the most is the name Isreal, feels so much like the 20th century state rather than some medieval Jewish kingdom. Judea (or anything regarding the place I have no knowledge) would be better sounding.

 

[Woifee]

It being fictional is not the problem I guess, what bothers me the most is the name Isreal, feels so much like the 20th century state rather than some medieval Jewish kingdom. Judea (or anything regarding the place I have no knowledge) would be better sounding.

So would modern Israel have the name Judea instead of Israel you would have a problem with Judea

 

[talilu]

So would modern Israel have the name Judea instead of Israel you would have a problem with Judea

Exactly!

 

[Durnilhas]

It's what i said too. 20th century country in eu4 :/.
Fictionnal is a problem since eu4 is historic accurate. If you want to change that, do a mod, it's why they exist.

here are fictional kingdoms in EU4:

First example that comes to my head: Kingdom of Ireland.

edit: And Scandinavia. (or is it an empire?)

There is a true Scandinavian membership in scandinavia. With his own flag (paradox never invented it). In real life you can see this flag along the country's. That's not fictionnal, but indead this is not a country with a unify government. But it still logic to have an united country under the scandinavian flag since they already are and always was since crusades...

There was a kingdom of ireland ! 1550 to 18XX if i remember well. And eu4 start in 1444 and end in 1820. It's not fictional, it's a real country that existed and merged with great britain ^^. It's even in the good period.