Nationalities that nearly were

[Gordy]

Nothing funny with it. The name "Moldavian/Moldovan SSR" was built on the same pattern as every name of the constituent republics of the USSR: [adjective derived from the name of the nation] + SSR. This was changed to the pattern "Republic + [name of the country], so a substantive. Nothing particularly unusual in the pos-Soviet world, and certainly nothing subversive. The substantive "Moldova" never ceased to be used in the Romanian/Moldavian language throughout the Soviet period, it's just that the official, formal name of the Republic used the adjective derived from this word(which was, as I said, a standard practice in the Soviet Union).

Standard practice being that the Russian name was used not the Romanian name. This was part and parcel of an attempt to russify the population. If it had ever been known as Moldovan SSR then it would hardly have required an act of parliament to change this name back to Moldova. It never was called that other than in "Moldovan" but since nobody really cared what the Moldovan name was, the official name was the Russian one.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

But Moldova is the normal name for the country in English, it has been since the republic became independent and changed its name, it is unusual to use "Moldavia" in English.

Is it?

Had things gone differently with the Articles of Confederation, the United States likely would have broken up into several nationalities either based on states (Massachusetts vs. New Hampshire) or regional nationalities. And of course, there is always the Canadian question. Some Americans would have liked to have annexed them into the American Nation.

Some Americans would have liked to annex all of Latin America into the Union too. Mostly, into the Confederacy part of it. 'Cause cotton ain't gonna grow on the air, you know!

I'm not even sure what the argument is- "Moldavia" has no connotations to foreigners and does not exist in romanian. So who exactly is benefiting from Russia using one or the other?

Precisely. Both Moldavia and Moldova are correct in English, and there's no connotation to English speakers, so period.

 

[Amallric]

Standard practice being that the Russian name was used not the Romanian name. This was part and parcel of an attempt to russify the population.

The Russian name was used in Russian. The Moldavian name was used in Moldavian. I do not see how this is an attempt to do anything.

If it had ever been known as Moldovan SSR then it would hardly have required an act of parliament to change this name back to Moldova.

It was known as the Moldovan SSR in the Moldavian language. It was not known as the "Moldovan" SSR in the Russian language because the word "Moldovan" does not exist in the Russian language, just as the word "Moldavian" does not exist in the Moldavian language. The act of parliament is exactly similar to the one that changed, for instance, "the Tadjik SSR" into Tajikistan or the Kazakh SSR into Kazakhstan. It replaces the adjective with a substantive, both however derived from exactly the same root.

. It never was called that other than in "Moldovan" but since nobody really cared what the Moldovan name was, the official name was the Russian one.

The official name in the official language of the Republic, was "Moldovan". It was translated as "Moldavian" in the Russian and other languages because this was the form that was historically adopted in the foreign countries. After 1991 Moldavia asked that its name be merely transliterated, not translated into foreign languages, thus disregarding the accepted linguistic practice. Which is their right after all, but slightly ridiculous, and, as we established here, ignored by pretty much everybody except in very formal diplomatic speech.

 

[Gordy]

Is it?


Precisely. Both Moldavia and Moldova are correct in English, and there's no connotation to English speakers, so period.

English is a language used not just by Anglophones though, it is an international language.

And whilst you claim that both forms are correct in English, no international organisation uses the Russian name.

 

[Gordy]

The Russian name was used in Russian. The Moldavian name was used in Moldavian. I do not see how this is an attempt to do anything.



It was known as the Moldovan SSR in the Moldavian language. It was not known as the "Moldovan" SSR in the Russian language because the word "Moldovan" does not exist in the Russian language, just as the word "Moldavian" does not exist in the Moldavian language. The act of parliament is exactly similar to the one that changed, for instance, "the Tadjik SSR" into Tajikistan or the Kazakh SSR into Kazakhstan. It replaces the adjective with a substantive, both however derived from exactly the same root.



The official name in the official language of the Republic, was "Moldovan". It was translated as "Moldavian" in the Russian and other languages because this was the form that was historically adopted in the foreign countries. After 1991 Moldavia asked that its name be merely transliterated, not translated into foreign languages, thus disregarding the accepted linguistic practice. Which is their right after all, but slightly ridiculous, and, as we established here, ignored by pretty much everybody except in very formal diplomatic speech.

Um, no, not in English anyway. It is the form most commonly used other than in historical references.

And yes whilst Moldovan was used in the Moldovan language, the reality was that Moldovan wasn't used much by officialdom and thus the place was known by its Russian name. There is a reason why the Moldovan anthem (chosen after the fall of communism) is called "Our language" and that's because the Moldovan / Romanian language had been under threat from Russian.

It would be kind of like me observing that Eire has always been the name of Ireland in Gaelic. Nice but that means very little if 99% of references to the country are in English. After 1991, the Moldovan / Romanian language was restored and they insisted on the Romanian name not the Russian name be used by international organisations.

According to Google Fight:

Moldova 22.7 million hits
Moldavia 2.17 million hits

 

[Rey]

Aside from Poland and Bohemia, almost all West Slavic lands were virtually post-conquest societies, even if local Slavic dynasties managed to retain power (like in Pomerania and Mecklenburg) as German /Danish vassals. Local native elites were either wiped out or forced to submit and assimilate. A completely different ethnicity imposed itself as the new ruling class. Within two generations Slavs were reduced into peasants or city paupers and any kind of social advance required switching into German language. Slavs were subjected into many forms of discrimination, for example they were barred from certain professions or from settling in certain areas or their word had less weight in courts. On the other hand, there was nothing resembling an apartheid (which would have kept the Slavic community cohesive). It was relatively easy to change one's status by switching into German language. In Poland and Bohemia the were native elites and the native element was never discriminated against. This allowed the Poles and Czechs to assimilate German settlers, not the other way around.

There's also a religious factor. There's a direct correlation between Protestantism and the success of the Germanization of West Slavic lands. In some cases (Upper Silesia, Lusatia) Catholic areas retained their predominately Slavic character. That was because the liturgical language in the Catholic Church was Latin. Both German and Slavic had similar status according to the church which allowed Slavic to retain some prestige. The situation was much different in Protestant lands, where the state decided the liturgical language. After a brief stint with using local languages (for example in Pomerania), the liturgical language was gradually switched into German, often after crushing severe resistance from the local population (there were severe riots in some Lower Silesian town over this forced language shift). This gave German additional prestige status and incentive to use it.

Very interesting post. I was aware of the post-conquest consequences, but I didn't thought that the Reformation had such an assimilating effect.

With all this talk about the Czechs, I would like to add another 'nationality that nearly was', the Moravians. It seems that some sort of resurgence of local patriotism happened with the end of the Cold War which still exists today.

 

[L'Afrique]

Um, no, not in English anyway. It is the form most commonly used other than in historical references.

And yes whilst Moldovan was used in the Moldovan language, the reality was that Moldovan wasn't used much by officialdom and thus the place was known by its Russian name. There is a reason why the Moldovan anthem (chosen after the fall of communism) is called "Our language" and that's because the Moldovan / Romanian language had been under threat from Russian.

It would be kind of like me observing that Eire has always been the name of Ireland in Gaelic. Nice but that means very little if 99% of references to the country are in English. After 1991, the Moldovan / Romanian language was restored and they insisted on the Romanian name not the Russian name be used by international organisations.

According to Google Fight:

Moldova 22.7 million hits
Moldavia 2.17 million hits

The point being made is that "Moldavia" is not considered "the russian name" outside of Moldova and Romania, and no one sees the use of it as denying the existence of moldovan language or people. In english it's "the historic name" and in many other languages, it's the only name, and "Moldova" sounds awkward, like saying Nihon or Deutschland in english. If people switched from Moldova to Moldavia you'd have a point, but french people talking about "la Moldavie" before, during, and after occupation are not denying the existence of moldovan people or buying into a russian narrative- they're just using the only name they know.

 

[jamhaw]

Is it?



Some Americans would have liked to annex all of Latin America into the Union too. Mostly, into the Confederacy part of it. 'Cause cotton ain't gonna grow on the air, you know!



Precisely. Both Moldavia and Moldova are correct in English, and there's no connotation to English speakers, so period.

I tend to call it Moldavia. That does seem to be the traditional English name when not calling it Bessarabia, anyone familiar with the politics of that name, is it PC to do so?

 

[pithorr]

With all this talk about the Czechs, I would like to add another 'nationality that nearly was', the Moravians. It seems that some sort of resurgence of local patriotism happened with the end of the Cold War which still exists today.

I think it is rather local patriotism, last remains of tribalism only. With some odd habits...
Someting like for the Swabians :ninja:

 

[Andrelvis]

If Byzantine and then Arab conquest hadn't happened, there could have been a Latin nationality in the western parts of North Africa, much like those of Iberia. Eventually, the Germanic rulers would probably have assimilated, as happened with the Visigoths in Spain and the Sueves in Portugal. Alternatively, a Latin nationality in North Africa could also have come about if Arabization of the local population hadn't been as successful, and the Reconquista extended to the western parts of North Africa.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

If Byzantine and then Arab conquest hadn't happened, there could have been a Latin nationality in the western parts of North Africa, much like those of Iberia. Eventually, the Germanic rulers would probably have assimilated, as happened with the Visigoths in Spain and the Sueves in Portugal. Alternatively, a Latin nationality in North Africa could also have come about if Arabization of the local population hadn't been as successful, and the Reconquista extended to the western parts of North Africa.

A Germanic fusion with the local Tunisian culture would have been interesting.

 

[PMLF]

If Byzantine and then Arab conquest hadn't happened, there could have been a Latin nationality in the western parts of North Africa, much like those of Iberia. Eventually, the Germanic rulers would probably have assimilated, as happened with the Visigoths in Spain and the Sueves in Portugal. Alternatively, a Latin nationality in North Africa could also have come about if Arabization of the local population hadn't been as successful, and the Reconquista extended to the western parts of North Africa.

Besides African Latin, a few other Latin places could have survived too, had circumstances been very different:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Latin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance

 

[Gordy]

The point being made is that "Moldavia" is not considered "the russian name" outside of Moldova and Romania, and no one sees the use of it as denying the existence of moldovan language or people. In english it's "the historic name" and in many other languages, it's the only name, and "Moldova" sounds awkward, like saying Nihon or Deutschland in english. If people switched from Moldova to Moldavia you'd have a point, but french people talking about "la Moldavie" before, during, and after occupation are not denying the existence of moldovan people or buying into a russian narrative- they're just using the only name they know.

I wasn't commenting about how the French render the name but how it is rendered in English and "Moldova" is now the dominant form. Moldavia is a name of Russian origin and no longer used much other than in historical works.

 

[Gordy]

I tend to call it Moldavia. That does seem to be the traditional English name when not calling it Bessarabia, anyone familiar with the politics of that name, is it PC to do so?

It's just weird. It's not far off referring to France as "Gaul".

 

[Andrelvis]

I wasn't commenting about how the French render the name but how it is rendered in English and "Moldova" is now the dominant form. Moldavia is a name of Russian origin and no longer used much other than in historical works.

Moldavia is used in English to refer to the region in Romania.

 

[Gordy]

Moldavia is used in English to refer to the region in Romania.

It isn't. Both the Romanian region of Moldova and the Republic of Moldova are known as "Moldova" in English. It would make no sense to use the Russian name for a neighbouring state to refer to a region of Romania. People on this forum need to stop reading history and start reading contemporary documents.

 

[HuzzButt]

It isn't. Both the Romanian region of Moldova and the Republic of Moldova are known as "Moldova" in English. It would make no sense to use the Russian name for a neighbouring state to refer to a region of Romania. People on this forum need to stop reading history and start reading contemporary documents.

I'm getting some mixed messages from google.

 

[Gordy]

I'm getting some mixed messages from google.

All of the results for "Moldova" that I see are current whereas most of those for "Moldavia" are about history.

Edit: even more clear cut try doing a google search on "Moldavia region Romania". I did and I got "Did you mean: moldova region romania"

That is as unmixed a message as you can get. Moldavia is not "the English name for a region in Romania".

And it's a similar story if you google "Republic of Moldavia", the suggested alternative is "Republic of Moldova".

 

[jamhaw]

It's just weird. It's not far off referring to France as "Gaul".

But I have read Besserabia in a number of 20th century works. Admittedly they also liked to say Constantinople and Servia...

All of the results for "Moldova" that I see are current whereas most of those for "Moldavia" are about history.

Edit: even more clear cut try doing a google search on "Moldavia region Romania". I did and I got "Did you mean: moldova region romania"

That is as unmixed a message as you can get. Moldavia is not "the English name for a region in Romania".

And it's a similar story if you google "Republic of Moldavia", the suggested alternative is "Republic of Moldova".

Clearly Google is under the control of a conspiracy reaching throughout the Internet. Those treacherous and perfidious Moldavians are plotting something....

 

[Amallric]

Bessarabia is different, it's a geographical region, not a country. It covers roughly the same area as modern Moldavia(but not exactly; some parts of Bessarabia are in Ukraine), but it certainly cannot be used as a synonym for historical Moldavia, which is much larger than just Bessarabia.