National Ideas?
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I remember that each country had different National traits...or something. The United States had Liberty, Canada had Order, etc. It'd be nice if you can change that around with your actions.
Those were "national values" if I recall right.
They were modifiers, affecting to some extend how easy it was to guide said country in the direction you wanted. And you couldn't directly choose them - they were set in stone at the start of the game, although certain events could change them.
As for NIs in terms of EU3/Rome (as for multiple of them, changable over time), I'm not really sure it if makes sense in a game that got timespan of only 100 years.
Note that in EU3 and Rome R&D system was very basic, without any choices and with barely any ability to affect its course, while Vicky had much more "controllable" R&D - in a way, in EU3/Rome NI were replacement for the technologies choice. In games like HoI/Vicky, you do the same by simply choosing what technologies you want to focus on.
Certainly it can be added, but it would feel a bit redundant. Right now, Vicky 1 allows you to choose all the stuff that "fits" NIs in techs - Clausewitz vs. Jomini, Naval Hero vs. Superior Crew, Plutocracy vs. Aristocracy and so on. Where does it leave space for NIs?
They were modifiers, affecting to some extend how easy it was to guide said country in the direction you wanted. And you couldn't directly choose them - they were set in stone at the start of the game, although certain events could change them.
As for NIs in terms of EU3/Rome (as for multiple of them, changable over time), I'm not really sure it if makes sense in a game that got timespan of only 100 years.
Note that in EU3 and Rome R&D system was very basic, without any choices and with barely any ability to affect its course, while Vicky had much more "controllable" R&D - in a way, in EU3/Rome NI were replacement for the technologies choice. In games like HoI/Vicky, you do the same by simply choosing what technologies you want to focus on.
Certainly it can be added, but it would feel a bit redundant. Right now, Vicky 1 allows you to choose all the stuff that "fits" NIs in techs - Clausewitz vs. Jomini, Naval Hero vs. Superior Crew, Plutocracy vs. Aristocracy and so on. Where does it leave space for NIs?
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I think that society is much too advanced and complex in the industrial era to have its people choose a single or few ideas to bind their national identity with.
I vote nay
I vote nay
I vote yea.
But only after a change in government type and only after two generations or so. That is to say, if a nation civilises, takes the necessary step to become, say, a parliamentary democracy, goes through civil unrest as a result, it should have the opportunity to switch from Sloth to Liberty or whatever, quite some time after the event.
But only after a change in government type and only after two generations or so. That is to say, if a nation civilises, takes the necessary step to become, say, a parliamentary democracy, goes through civil unrest as a result, it should have the opportunity to switch from Sloth to Liberty or whatever, quite some time after the event.
The idea of National Values was that they are unchangeable. They are embedded within the culture of that nation and politcial actions/events are always effected by these values. This adds realism to the game and I think they should remain unchangeable.
Adding more of them however is something I think would be good to look into. What about more customised ones to specific major nations? USA and New Zealand; Liberty, France and Sweden; Equality, United Kingdom and Japan; Culture or Tradition, Germany and Russia; Order etc etc ?
Adding more of them however is something I think would be good to look into. What about more customised ones to specific major nations? USA and New Zealand; Liberty, France and Sweden; Equality, United Kingdom and Japan; Culture or Tradition, Germany and Russia; Order etc etc ?
Keep in mind though that all of that was already present in Vicky 1 in one way (trinity of order, liberty and equality) or another (more detailed choices in beurocracy vs nepotism, Jomini vs. Clausevitz and so on).
I guess main quesion now is if they should be moved out from R&D or static modifier and represented in a way NIs are represented in EU3/Rome, not if they should be there at all (because they were there already in previous title).
I guess main quesion now is if they should be moved out from R&D or static modifier and represented in a way NIs are represented in EU3/Rome, not if they should be there at all (because they were there already in previous title).
I say leave it as it is. The national direction thing was one thing victoria did very well and certainly a thousand times better than EU. Having them as decisions to revoke following revolutions maybe with change value, eg. if you were order and are now equality you can change your beaucracy-nepotism choice in the first couple years following the revolution.
Keep in mind that EU3/Rome Nis representation, contrary to the one from Vicky, is crystal clear in terms of interface and long term planning for player.
You get all NIs in one place, easy to check long before you can implement them, with all effects presented in easy way. Compare it with Vicky, where only after multiple games played you actually learned about them, you had no idea (only vague one, based on the event description) what they do and their launch was semi-random.
It's not that Vicky system was not intriguing in its own way, but in terms of presenation and friendliness for player, EU3/Rome NI system is definetly superior.
You get all NIs in one place, easy to check long before you can implement them, with all effects presented in easy way. Compare it with Vicky, where only after multiple games played you actually learned about them, you had no idea (only vague one, based on the event description) what they do and their launch was semi-random.
It's not that Vicky system was not intriguing in its own way, but in terms of presenation and friendliness for player, EU3/Rome NI system is definetly superior.
NAH. NI's make sense in Europa and Rome, but not in Victoria. The nation is a far more defined "being" than in previous centuries: sure, nation-building isn't finished at all... But if you say an Italian, someone knows that you are refering to someone born in that region. If you say German, he might have a bit of trouble (Is an Austrian a German? A Swiss from the northern cantons can be one too? What about the settlers in Eastern Europe, or the ones who have Slavic surnames? And the ones in the Low Countries? They are fairly germanic, but are Germans too?), but the asked will have a basic notion, an idea of what a German is.
He/she can have some SERIOUS problem trying to reply about the South Americans, the imperial dependencies of the Russian (COME ON, Tatars aren't Russian!), Ottoman (An arab isn't a turk!) and Austrian empires... But overall some characteristics can be pointed out that happen to be common throughout a determined cultural border and that sometimes goes even beyond (such as the Eastern Slavs).
Thus the concept of NI, for me, is already defeated. You think of the British, you think of the Isles, the colonial empire, the naval prowess, the tea at five...
That is what I am talking about. This is the founding of the Nation-State, not of the nation.
What perhaps I would like to see is the opportunity for the countries that only have a tenuous identity to have their national revolutions, such as the Russian, the Chinese and the Mexican for example. If it goes in the player's favour, it should allow him to choose the national value, create a new identity (preferably one that includes the majority of population), etc.
He/she can have some SERIOUS problem trying to reply about the South Americans, the imperial dependencies of the Russian (COME ON, Tatars aren't Russian!), Ottoman (An arab isn't a turk!) and Austrian empires... But overall some characteristics can be pointed out that happen to be common throughout a determined cultural border and that sometimes goes even beyond (such as the Eastern Slavs).
Thus the concept of NI, for me, is already defeated. You think of the British, you think of the Isles, the colonial empire, the naval prowess, the tea at five...
That is what I am talking about. This is the founding of the Nation-State, not of the nation.What perhaps I would like to see is the opportunity for the countries that only have a tenuous identity to have their national revolutions, such as the Russian, the Chinese and the Mexican for example. If it goes in the player's favour, it should allow him to choose the national value, create a new identity (preferably one that includes the majority of population), etc.
Id say the N.I.'s dont make sense in Europa or Rome but work as a Gamey thing. And something like that would be insufferable in Victoria II.
The problem I see is that in the time period, nations were not always defined by their countries/governments.
Put simply, why should the North Germans of Prussia have different national ideas than the North Germans of Hannover, or the North Germans of Lippe-Dethmold? It just doesn't fit well into the time period IMO.
Put simply, why should the North Germans of Prussia have different national ideas than the North Germans of Hannover, or the North Germans of Lippe-Dethmold? It just doesn't fit well into the time period IMO.
Country ideas then? :rofl:
It's just a name tag after all. In old Vicky, different German states also had different "national ideas" - all the Jomini vs Clausewitz, Nepotism vs Beaurocracy choices could go different for them (I'm not sure of the Order, Liberty, Eqality triangle was different for different German states, but I have a feeling it was).
It's not really a valid argument, I'm affraid. Fact is, NIs ARE in Vicky already. Question is, should they be kept like they were in original game (as for "curious, but rather unwieldy for new players") or like they were present in EU3/Rome (as "right at the front to check, but maybe losing some interesting random element because of that").
Unless by being agaist NIs you mean all those choices present in original Vicky should be removed as well?
I have to say, no matter how they are going to be presented, I don't really like the idea of making them easy to change. Too short timespan, not really fitting the era - you literally forge your nation here (nationalism era), it shouldn't be just a matter of -3 (or even -6) stab to change those values.