National Ideagroups - 23rd of October A - Mughals & Timurids

[TheMeInTeam]

Timurids were the only horde that was outperforming history in EU most games, so it's not surprising they got smacked with the nerf bat. I'm a lot more okay with this than the global horde nerf via province autonomy, unless hordes got a large compensation buff.

The loss of unity NI on Timmy is going to hit really hard. Persia will be quite fierce again, and lacking the -core cost idea right from go will hamper them also. Of course, there is some incentive to release + march Persia and just walk over Ottomans and Muscovy super early then form Mughals...not sure on Persia's tax though.

 

[krelian]

Timurids were the only horde that was outperforming history in EU most games, so it's not surprising they got smacked with the nerf bat. I'm a lot more okay with this than the global horde nerf via province autonomy, unless hordes got a large compensation buff.

The loss of unity NI on Timmy is going to hit really hard. Persia will be quite fierce again, and lacking the -core cost idea right from go will hamper them also. Of course, there is some incentive to release + march Persia and just walk over Ottomans and Muscovy super early then form Mughals...not sure on Persia's tax though.

I'm not sure how it works, but aren't the new Mughal ideas only available to a Mughal revolter? If I start as any horde and reform into the Mughals I keep my starting ideas, no? Or is it just me being clueless because they used to share traditions with Timmy.

 

[Golladan]

I'm not sure how it works, but aren't the new Mughal ideas only available to a Mughal revolter? If I start as any horde and reform into the Mughals I keep my starting ideas, no? Or is it just me being clueless because they used to share traditions with Timmy.

If they set the decision to change ideas then they'll change ideas.

Actually the decision is already set to change ideas.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If they set the decision to change ideas then they'll change ideas.

Actually the decision is already set to change ideas.

Yes, Persia, Mughals, and Prussia are among only a few that change ideas (BYZ does too, as does Italy, but most don't).

Thus in 1.7.3 you can form Mughals with Baluchistan and get their ideas. You can also form Persia as an Orthodox Georgia and get Persian ideas. Forming France will not give you French ideas though.

 

[HabemusZlatan]

As an avid Mughal/Indian area player, it was about time Timmies got nerfed to the ground.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As an avid Mughal/Indian area player, it was about time Timmies got nerfed to the ground.

IMO they're basically a walkover anyway unless you're Delhi, Kashmir, Sind, Multan or Baluchistan. If you go more into India than that, you have enough time to consolidate for big FL and gouge miltech to be on par or bigger than theirs.

More than anything else they're just annoying due to their size + shattered retreat distance over low supply provinces, or in those games where the idiot rival rules wind up handing them an alliance with the Ottomans.

 

[208]

Another defining feature was fratricide and patricide but that doesn't really make for a great NI ;-)

You need a sufficient number of relatives to fuel continuous family murders - +% heir chance?

 

[Rabid]

IMO they're basically a walkover anyway unless you're Delhi, Kashmir, Sind, Multan or Baluchistan. If you go more into India than that, you have enough time to consolidate for big FL and gouge miltech to be on par or bigger than theirs.

More than anything else they're just annoying due to their size + shattered retreat distance over low supply provinces, or in those games where the idiot rival rules wind up handing them an alliance with the Ottomans.

It's more of an AI thing, it was making the region extremely non-dynamic when you have this almost 100% guaranteed giant blob eating the Middle East / Central Asia / India. If I wanted that sort of experience I would play in Europe!

 

[Novacat]

Objectively, huge nerf to Timurids, slight nerf to Mughals.

This. 1.7 Timurids/Mughals has better NIs than either Timurids or Mughals in 1.8.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This. 1.7 Timurids/Mughals has better NIs than either Timurids or Mughals in 1.8.

Bah, Mughals are barely weaker. This is nothing compared to the obnoxious autonomy nerf, unless I'm misunderstanding it.

 

[Thrake]

Interesting changes, though the idea cost reduction will probably come into play quite late as it requires to go through govt reformation first. I also hope it wil be made easier for AI to reform so that while you encourage Timurids dissolution (no more religious unity so say good bye to Persia), it will still allow them to form the Mughals and start painting India all the while some horde also succeeds to reform and actually form Persia (there's some interesting flavor for Otto/Mughals/Persia going on if the other tags are around).

 

[Utretch]

It's more of an AI thing, it was making the region extremely non-dynamic when you have this almost 100% guaranteed giant blob eating the Middle East / Central Asia / India. If I wanted that sort of experience I would play in Europe!

Yeah! Stupid Aachen ruining every game!

 

[Incompetent]

Reduced culture acceptance threshold would make sense for Mughals, as their empire was quite cosmopolitan in outlook and managed to incorporate elements of many ethnic groups into its elite (also India is a cultural-acceptance nightmare in the current setup - not sure if this will change with the new map). Still, those ideas look pretty good for what was one of the top-tier powers of the EU era.

 

[Sidereus]

If there was one thing I could ask for, it would be to not have both less prestige decay and more yearly prestige for the same nation. Surely one prestige idea is enough. (Frankly, one at all feels unnecessary.)

 

[Rabid]

How many non-Horde nations are there which can fufil the requirements to form Mughals starting in 1444? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Baluchistan, which may well be a good pick in 1.8 if the Timurids are sufficiently weakened by their changed ideas (plus Baluchistan has like 3-4 times more provinces now IIRC)

E: Never mind, Baluchistan is tribal, just goes to show I haven't even thought about playing as them for ages. Unless something has changed I guess you need to do a culture shift in order to form Mughals as a non-Tribal from a 1444 start.

 

[birincikalite]

Lol what's the matter with technology cost? Samarkand was the center of the technology(mainly Astronomy) in Islamic world for quite some time and Timurids weren't savage beasts who only knew how to fight and raze cities down, as most of you seem to think.

Mughal ideas seems pretty impressive but it's a shame AI will never form the Mughals actually... :/ I understand that you want to limit the Timurid expansion but never having a Mughal Empire in games seems unhistorical and creates a lot of empty space in the are that isn't filled by any major power.

 

[Thesian]

Another defining feature was fratricide and patricide but that doesn't really make for a great NI ;-)

Sure it does:
Fratricide and Patricide: Every monarch point a ruler or heir has below 4 in any category gives a monthly chance of 1% of that person being murdered by a relative.