National Ideagroups - 20th of October C - Tarasca

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Johan

Studio Manager Paradox Tinto
Administrator
Paradox Staff
Moderator
15 Badges
Dec 14, 1999
18.277
38.684
  • Diplomacy
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Magicka
  • Starvoid
Tarasca

Traditions
+1 Legitimacy
-3 Years of Nationalism

  1. Copperworking: +10% Infantry Power
  2. No Mercy: -1 Unrest
  3. Merchant Officials: +10% Trade Efficiency
  4. War Bonfires: -10% Recruitment Speed
  5. Fortified Frontier: +15% Defensiveness
  6. Otomi Settlements: +15% Manpower
  7. Tarascan Assimilation: -15% Core Creation Cost


Ambition
+10% Manpower Recovery
 

Evie HJ

Cartographer of New Worlds
78 Badges
Jun 14, 2006
4.885
918
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Sengoku
  • Deus Vult
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Not at all.

Think Aztecs, except more defence-orientated and surviving several decades longer via an arrangement with the spanish.

More defense-oriented and more long-term oriented...the Tarascans in general did a better job of not having half of Mexico wanting them dead than the Aztecs.

They could be compared to an EU state that grows super fast gobbling up provinces left and right but accumulating AE like there's no tomorrow and failing to core half their conquests (Aztecs) to a more careful expansionist who get fewer provinces at a time, but core them all and build them up (Tarascans). One's going to look mighty impressive, but in the long run the other has fairly good odds of outlasting them.
 

Holbenilord

Captain
104 Badges
Jan 16, 2014
360
502
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
More defense-oriented and more long-term oriented...the Tarascans in general did a better job of not having half of Mexico wanting them dead than the Aztecs.

They could be compared to an EU state that grows super fast gobbling up provinces left and right but accumulating AE like there's no tomorrow and failing to core half their conquests (Aztecs) to a more careful expansionist who get fewer provinces at a time, but core them all and build them up (Tarascans). One's going to look mighty impressive, but in the long run the other has fairly good odds of outlasting them.
I've heard stories, though I can't source them, of the Mexica sending envoys desperately to the Tarascans, telling them of their plight and asking for any kind of aid. The Tarascans just sent them away with vague promises and did nothing. Then, when the spanish came, they just agreed to pay tribute and carried on as they were, until the spanish discovered later they were still taking taxes and brought the armies of colonial mexico down on them.

Interesting nation to play- I note the first NI was copperworking, but I thought it was iron that was novel for the tarascans? After all copper metallurgy had been around for a long time in the americas.
 

Evie HJ

Cartographer of New Worlds
78 Badges
Jun 14, 2006
4.885
918
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Sengoku
  • Deus Vult
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Copper metallurgy in the Americas is a mixed history (some regions had it early, others very slowly). But in Mesoamerica specifically, the use of metal tools took off very late, and started taking off with the Tarascans. Bronze tools (and, per some version, weapons) were a lot more common there than among their other neighbors.
 

Holbenilord

Captain
104 Badges
Jan 16, 2014
360
502
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
This intrigued me so I had to look it up more. It seems that Tarascan tin-bronze and arsenic-bronze was a major export from west mexico since ~1200 CE, though apparently there was another source somewhere in the south-east.

This paper: http://www.famsi.org/reports/02063/02063Maldonado01.pdf suggests they certainly had no lack of obsidian, though, which makes it all the more remarkable to me.

This one: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~izapa/M-28.pdf suggests (fig 4) that the centre of Tarascan governance was actually quite distant from the main metal-producing regions. Might be useful for tradegood maps too : P

There's more exploration of west mexican metallurgical movements here http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11837-999-0034-6#page-1 which also emphasises the significance of Cu-Pb.
 

Closet Skeleton

Field Marshal
52 Badges
Aug 8, 2011
2.503
498
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • King Arthur II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Never heard of Tarasca, is this some kinda tribe in mexico?

Very few Mexican states were tribal. Tarasca was the Aztec's main rival.

Think Aztecs, except more defence-orientated and surviving several decades longer via an arrangement with the spanish.

They didn't have a ton of rebellious vassals for the Spanish to take advantage of, that's why they lasted longer. They were still mostly destroyed by rebels backed by the Spanish but it was slower and bloodier.
 

migalhone

Victoria 3 believer.
17 Badges
Sep 13, 2013
633
530
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Love this set of ideas, lots of promise in this start.
 

Krajzen

Field Marshal
29 Badges
Aug 29, 2014
5.039
8.764
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
Tarasca

Traditions
+1 Legitimacy
-3 Years of Nationalism



  1. [*]Copperworking: +10% Infantry Power
  2. No Mercy: -1 Unrest
    [*]Merchant Officials: +10% Trade Efficiency
  3. War Bonfires: -10% Recruitment Speed
  4. Fortified Frontier: +15% Defensiveness
  5. Otomi Settlements: +15% Manpower
    [*]Tarascan Assimilation: -15% Core Creation Cost


Ambition
+10% Manpower Recovery

Okay, I love it.

Although I am pretty sure it should say '-10% recruitment TIME' instead of '-10% recruitment SPEED' :D :D :D
 

Knut Skallagrim

Major
71 Badges
Jul 29, 2013
721
491
  • Victoria 2
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
very good set of ideas !! gonna definitely try a game with tarasca