I think they want you to come back every day so you can see the Charlemagne banner so you will buy it.
National Ideagroups - 15th of October - A
- Thread starter Johan
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I think they want you to come back every day so you can see the Charlemagne banner so you will buy it.
Praise the gods! Ive been waiting a long time for this, I really hope they will eventually have unique mechanics and events too.
In the context of the current patch, the ideas are kind of weak. However, they are still VASTLY superior to the pathetic excuse for NIs that are generic ideas. 25% manpower is standard, and 10% morale, manpower recovery, and infantry combat are all below comparable ideas elsewhere but not grossly pathetic. While it's not an amazing set, it's welcome all the same and reasonable.
I just hope Inca gets treated like the better nation it was historically.
Pathetic? Are we going to have haters everywhere these days, or is it timeless human nature? :d
+10% infantry combat ability is really good, +10% land morale and +25% manpower are also really solid ideas, +10% manpower recovery speed is actually rare and very strong idea, other Aztec NIs provide them easier claim CB (spy offence), solve the problem of legitimacy and pretenders and increase your national income by 10% PLUS make you save a bunch of monarch points and you STILL COMPLAIN? Read the comments - literally everyone except you likes/loves them.
Do you play only Ottomans/Prussia/other First Power OP Countries to state these ideas are 'pathetic'?
EDIT
Out of hundreds countries in the game literally the only nations in the game which have better land warfare bonuses (more percentages or discipline/other top tier stuff Aztecs are missing) than Aztecs are: Timurids, Sweden, Russia, Punjab + Sikh, Prussia, Poland, Ottomans, Nepal, Manchu, Iroquis, Japan, France, Wallachia (lol). There are also twice as many with ideas on very similar level of Aztecs.
This is what do you define as 'pathetic' NIs? Being in top NI tier?
^ horde ideas are markedly better than Aztec also, with 20% manpower recovery and -25% core cost to go with 20% cavalry combat ability/leader shock.
The problem with Aztec's ideas are scale + scope. They don't have very strong individual bonuses, and they don't have focused bonuses. This makes their idea set somewhat mediocre in 1.8, but not terrible.
Nepal's ideas are not better unless they get de-nerfed. Nepal got nerfed into a pathetic shell of its former self w/o basis.
Also, if you just go by "strong individual bonuses within its focus premise", then go ahead and add nations like Austria, The Knights, Papal State, NED, Denmark, Mamluks, Ming, Hungary, Burgundy (they should have been on your list too), Songhai, Venice, Genoa, The Hansa, Scotland, Italy, and divine ideas to the list.
On a scale/scope setup, the Aztec ideas here are mediocre. Then again, should the Aztec actually have better-than-mediocre ideas? They were not as impressive as the Inca.
The problem with Aztec's ideas are scale + scope. They don't have very strong individual bonuses, and they don't have focused bonuses. This makes their idea set somewhat mediocre in 1.8, but not terrible.
Nepal's ideas are not better unless they get de-nerfed. Nepal got nerfed into a pathetic shell of its former self w/o basis.
Also, if you just go by "strong individual bonuses within its focus premise", then go ahead and add nations like Austria, The Knights, Papal State, NED, Denmark, Mamluks, Ming, Hungary, Burgundy (they should have been on your list too), Songhai, Venice, Genoa, The Hansa, Scotland, Italy, and divine ideas to the list.
On a scale/scope setup, the Aztec ideas here are mediocre. Then again, should the Aztec actually have better-than-mediocre ideas? They were not as impressive as the Inca.
Don't count on it. The converter is CK2 DLC and any changes to it will come from that end. All AoW will do to it is bork it by adding a bajillion provinces.
Possible, I forgot about them
+10% infantry combat ability
+10% land morale
+25% manpower
+10% manpower recovery speed
-10% WE reduction cost
+10% tax/production, +1 legitimacy
Uhm... I see clear pattern here - 'land military infantry powerhouse with ability to wage total wars', really don't understand where here you don't see focus. An example of a nation without clear focus is
Well yeah +0.25 to tradition and +2.5% discipline are awful but Nepal still has enough military bonuses to not be completely useless but rather OK
Apparently your 'NIs philosophy' is beyond my ability to comprehend it as I still don't get how do you rate NIs
I rated LAND MILITARY bonuses and the countries you have mentioned either have NAVAL bonuses or 1 - 2 strong land military bonuses, while Aztecs have 5 of them (and they don't suck enough to value Austrian reinforce speed idea worth m o r e than all of Aztec ideas combined
)Well, here I agree, Maya/Zapotec/Andean civilisations were IMHO more epic than Aztec short - living military vassal empire.
Personally I would totally give Tier 1 superb military bonuses to Araucans:
just look, look in awe at this forgotten awesomeness - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arauco_War
There is no reason not to give both fine NIs according to their historical significance, even if that means giving a hard time to North America nations and Europeans. These Aztecs NIs are a joke if you compare them against Cherokee, for example.
I don't like this balance for the sake of balance product vision that showed up since 1.6
Not a single one of those are top in class, in fact aside from the non-war ones there is at least one NI that is double their values, and several that are more. This is a mediocre war nation; not great but certainly not "pathetic" either.
Apparently your 'NIs philosophy' is beyond my ability to comprehend it as I still don't get how do you rate NIs
I rated LAND MILITARY bonuses and the countries you have mentioned either have NAVAL bonuses or 1 - 2 strong land military bonuses, while Aztecs have 5 of them (and they don't suck enough to value Austrian reinforce speed idea worth m o r e than all of Aztec ideas combined
I rate NIs not just on their military capability, but what they give overall. The nations I mentioned are mostly top-tier within a specific category or two; for example Austria is one of only two nations with diplo-annex reduction and has very strong economy/vassal type NIs.
When you can name 15-20 better nations for military NI
1. France
2. Ottomans
3. Prussia
4. Timurids
5. Manchu
6. 7x hordes
7. Russia
8. Theocracies
9. Knights
10. Songhai
11. Punjab
12. Japan
13. Burgundy
14. Scotland
15. Hungary
16. Poland
17. Lithuania
18. Sweden
And tons more that are stronger in different categories, you don't have a "great" NI set, you have a mediocre one.
There are another couple dozen that are stronger overall or similar, and of course quite a few that are worse. This is assuming that the parameters on the other nations aren't tweaked, however. If Ottoman ghazi is suddenly only 10% manpower recovery, this list will change.
Honestly I am not even sure if there is even a country which qualifies to the 'pathetic NIs' cathegory as all NIs are either good or uhm, better than nothing
<although some have so small bonus it is barely possible to notice, I look at ya Serbian +5% cavalry combat, Malines +0.50 naval tradition and Nepalese +0.25 land tradition... these single NIs are indeed pathetic)
Personally I qualify Aztecs are 'good' war nation.
Man, I understand, but I was responding to the post stating that Aztec ideas are 'pathetic for a military nation' and I concentrated on military ideas. Aztec warfare NIs are better than generics (of course!
), most of regional idea groups and provide more bonus to the warfare than most of nations (Kurland, freaking England etc)Mediocrity is achieved with regional/generic ideas or particular fails such as Kurland (+5% cavalry combat ability lol) (arguably generics can qualify to 'pathetic'
). As we are talking about LAND WARFARE only, you really shouldn't treat such nations as Venice better in the LAND WARFARE (although they are arguably better overall)Also, again, all these nations are arguably better in warfare than Aztecs. But hardly more tags are better in the specific cathegory of land conquest than Aztecs although many of them are on similar level. Non the best - yeah, non - pathetic: of course. I think the mediocre nation for land conquest is Genoa which has NOT A SINGLE idea for land conquest.
Allright, Aztecs have no hard diplo/hard trade/hard naval stuff but we should also look at their context: theis nation is in freakin Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerica, even in AOW, you are going to conquer/vassalize most of/all your neighbors via land warfare as fast as you can to be ready for Europeans and the Westernization. No naval combat nor extremely elaborate trade/diplomacy. You need to get stuff quickly. Thus Aztec ideas are IN THIS PARTICULAR ENVIRNMENT on at least the same level as Austrian ideas who lose much of their awesomeness outside of HRE/Europe.
Generic "national ideas". They are indeed pathetic, so bad that aside from traditions you could double them across the board and they still wouldn't be better than the Aztec set here for example...arguably still worse. Stock German NIs are pretty rough too, but they've an out or two. Rajput are pretty bad also, but nothing can touch generic in utter futility.
That's debatable. Having to fight a dominant naval power can quickly equate to a loss on land. The reason is that they have the naval FL and power to deploy enough cheap infantry to assault your empire at the drop of a hat, and you have to commit a force that can beat that while still somehow also committing to the war goal. Nations like NED that can drop mercs on your face and if you try to fight them straight up assault-occupy 10+ provinces are really annoying to fight on land, unless you're Russia or something.
Genoa can stack so many -naval maintenance modifiers that it gets negative maintenance. I doubt that survives 1.8, but once they have that going in 1.7 there are no stronger land warfare nations than Genoa. It's really, really hard to compete with infinite money
.Actually, while it's counter to intuitive logic, the easiest opening for Aztec now (and probably in 1.8) is to use a fast colony + collect in Caribbean ASAP to get money and build up 15-20 early carracks. The Iberians can't handle that well at all, so you can win wars against them immediately, snagging valuable Caribbean colonies and a fast western core (you can conquer a core outright to westernize haha, then simply seize colony and send colonist to convert their future, almost-finished colonies to your culture). As a bonus, if you sit on a seized colony, you can then sail over with superior navy and snag a Portuguese island, Meath, or an Aragon province in the Mediterranean. This lets you ally basically any major European power you're not burning bridges with even if you stay animist, but it's especially easy to get alliances if you go Christian since you can do royal marriages.
You will do this long before you get more than a couple ideas, and you will be taking exploration to colonize + westernize ASAP, which boosts naval FL at the end. That's not to say Aztec should get naval stuff, because it would make 0 historical sense, but it's definitely their best play
.
Actually, while it's counter to intuitive logic, the easiest opening for Aztec now (and probably in 1.8) is to use a fast colony + collect in Caribbean ASAP to get money and build up 15-20 early carracks. The Iberians can't handle that well at all, so you can win wars against them immediately, snagging valuable Caribbean colonies and a fast western core (you can conquer a core outright to westernize haha, then simply seize colony and send colonist to convert their future, almost-finished colonies to your culture). As a bonus, if you sit on a seized colony, you can then sail over with superior navy and snag a Portuguese island, Meath, or an Aragon province in the Mediterranean. This lets you ally basically any major European power you're not burning bridges with even if you stay animist, but it's especially easy to get alliances if you go Christian since you can do royal marriages.
You will do this long before you get more than a couple ideas, and you will be taking exploration to colonize + westernize ASAP, which boosts naval FL at the end. That's not to say Aztec should get naval stuff, because it would make 0 historical sense, but it's definitely their best play
...lol I have just realized Aztecs - due to slow tech/idea gain - conquer their neighbors before they get <almost> any national ideas... What a shock
It is even stupider because I am not complete ignorant on Native Americans as I am just finishing Iroquis playthrough lol (1st global power btw
half of NA + diplo annexed Portugal colonial empire including motherland + PU over very strong Aztec empire + many isles on Pacific)<although North Americans can get NIs faster than South/Central Americans, I mindlessly assumed this also for Aztecs>
Now my rating of Aztec NIs in 'their particular environment' has fallen from like 8/10 to 6/10 :f
Will Aztecs be able to form a more modern Mexico state? If they become westernized for example?