National Ideagroups - 14th of October - C

[Aldaron]

There were Basque sailors and colonists but Basque isn't automatically the same thing as Navarran.

How is that? Navarreses are basques. So can how they not be the same?

No! WTF!! It makes no sense historically!!!! They seem designed ideas for the Basque provinces, but not for historical Navarra, which has nothing to do.

Navarra had only one port in the Middle Ages (Fuenterrabía), but irrelevant. The Navarrese Company, for example, embarked on Tortosa (Catalonia) to Durazzo, in mercenaries boats. Navarra never threw whaling ships, of course. The Dorretxeak had no defensive importance. In the north, manors were defending other nobles, not from the outside, and had no defensive value compared to the castles of the south. So when Navarra was conquered, Cardinal Cisneros ordered to destroy the castles, dangerous for the invaders, not those buildings without relevance.

Nor was Navarre them stand in colonization, however yes there was most brilliant thinkers (Doctor Navarrus), missionaries (San Francisco Javier), theologians (Bartolomé de Carranza), politicians (Rodrigo Jimenez de Rada), military and engineers (Peter Navarro)... You could have chosen many other fields, no colonization.

And the idea Royal Basque Society is the icing on the cake. A disaster. I hope you rectify.

I mostly agree with you.

Navarra never gave up their aim to recover Alava, Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa from Castille. These two later provinces (Bizkaia and Gipuzkoa) plus Labourd where very deep into fishing and whale hunting. Should Navarra had recovered those lands, they would have probably encourage their naval power. But as they were, as you said, landlocked, their strategy was pretty different.

Navarra should have a more diplomatic aproach, IMHO. They survived surrounded by big powers for a pretty long time. Basque people are very proud of the Kingdom and its deeds, even when it's best time was before EU IV timeframe.

Anyway, as a basque speaker, I do agree with the other forumites: dorretxeak towers is like saying tower-house towers. And as Sanz de Acedo said, they were small castles, better for internoble struggles rather than handling big armies against them. But, I'm ok with giving them a defensive bonus, though. Just change the description.

All in all, I would stand more historical for the first half of the NIs and start with the "what ifs" in the later part.

 

[caquinoh]

I want to add something to what you said Aldaron.

Although its true Navarrese are basques (in XV century more than today), not all basques were Navarrese. Those in the western provinces were under Castillian rule, and weren't part of Navarre since more than two centuries. Anyway, as player I would try to conquer Bizkaia and Labort as soon as possible, so it would make sense to have the naval related bonuses.

About the ideas, I mostly agree with you and Sanz de Acedo, but I think the mercenary bonus is well justified, since Navarrese Kings had acces to Gascon and other south-french soldiers when they went to war (they owned lands there), and employed them many times in this era.

Abouth what others said about being hardly impossible as Navarra to survive, I've had many attempts and succeded in most of them (no cheating) simply by playing a balance game with my big neighbours (France, Castille, Aragon, England, Austria). I think that with the new set of ideas one can have a great trade-colonial empire if he gets to survive the early game.

 

[Aldaron]

I want to add something to what you said Aldaron.

Although its true Navarrese are basques (in XV century more than today), not all basques were Navarrese. Those in the western provinces were under Castillian rule, and weren't part of Navarre since more than two centuries. Anyway, as player I would try to conquer Bizkaia and Labort as soon as possible, so it would make sense to have the naval related bonuses.

About the ideas, I mostly agree with you and Sanz de Acedo, but I think the mercenary bonus is well justified, since Navarrese Kings had acces to Gascon and other south-french soldiers when they went to war (they owned lands there), and employed them many times in this era.

Abouth what others said about being hardly impossible as Navarra to survive, I've had many attempts and succeded in most of them (no cheating) simply by playing a balance game with my big neighbours (France, Castille, Aragon, England, Austria). I think that with the new set of ideas one can have a great trade-colonial empire if he gets to survive the early game.

You're right, but I did never said that all basques were under navarrese rule in this timeframe. In fact, I already said they were under castillian rule.

 

[Sanz de Acedo]

How is that? Navarreses are basques. So can how they not be the same?
.

Whatt??? I'm from Acedo, Navarra, and have lived my 30 of my 33 years here and I am not basque. Most of navarreses neither are basques nor considered basques themselves, nowadays.

Although its true Navarrese are basques (in XV century more than today)

My family has been living in Acedo (in the same Palacio de Cabo de Armería than today, you may visit it) since XV century and, as the house has never changed hands, I can say that my ancestor Martín Sanz de Acedo had seats in the Cortes of Navarre. No documents conserved in the house is in basque language and there is no evidence that people who have lived here were nothing but navarreses, no basques.

 

[caquinoh]

You're right, but I did never said that all basques were under navarrese rule in this timeframe. In fact, I already said they were under castillian rule.

I only wanted to point out what other guy said: Basque is not "automatically the same as Navarrese".

Whatt??? I'm from Acedo, Navarra, and have lived my 30 of my 33 years here and I am not basque. Most of navarreses neither are basques nor considered basques themselves, nowadays.

My family has been living in Acedo (in the same Palacio de Cabo de Armería than today, you may visit it) since XV century and, as the house has never changed hands, I can say that my ancestor Martín Sanz de Acedo had seats in the Cortes of Navarre. No documents conserved in the house is in basque language and there is no evidence that people who have lived here were nothing but navarreses, no basques.

About that, I'm from Navarra too (I have no famous ancestors), but I think what you said is not an evidence of anything: Basque was not in use in documents and administration even in places were it was widely spoken.

I'm not going to discuss that most Navarrese are not Basques or what they consider themselves (I speak Basque so I consider myself Basque). But from the cultural point of view, you can agree that Navarra was Basque in the time this game is about.

 

[Aldaron]

I'm not going to start a debate because of this, since this forums is not the correct place, nor I want to be banned because OT.

I will only say that the POV that Navarreses are not basques is pretty recent and it is thanks to UPN and their historical manipulation.

You can easily find documents that shows francoistic people that favoured the union of the four provinces (Laurak Bat) [look at the upper left corner, surprise!] or how the south of Navarre had a lot of PNV's majors [2 and 3], had ikurriñas in their townhalls in the 70's (such as Tafalla, Villaba, Estella...) or how the first basque-navarre authonomy was called "Estatuto de Estella" for a reason. If Navarrese weren't basques, there wouldn't be any necesity to ban ikurriñas nor they wouldn't need to create an ad hoc law to make euskara impossible to learn in the Ribera (I mean in public schools).

Speaking euskara is not a condition to be basque, as the aragonese people in La Franja, while speak catalan as their mother language, are not catalan, but aragonese.

Anyway, as I said, I won't debate anything related to this. Each one will take it's own decisions and think whatever they want, but history shows what happened.

 

[Sanz de Acedo]

But from the cultural point of view, you can agree that Navarra was Basque in the time this game is about.

No. Neither the "Cortes de Navarra" nor the "Junta de Infanzones" never fought for a single Basque peculiarity, simply because they were not Basque (and they represented the people, the "Estados"). Neither the Fueros collect any Basque singularity.

The Basques were living in the north, far less populated, poor, with horrible roads and politically powerless. If you are Navarrese, you know it just having traveled around here. Also if you had studied the subject with some depth and independence.

We can also talk about architecture and many other cultural details that draw two Navarres. And the rich, large (then representative)and powerful was not exactly the Basque one.

 

[Sanz de Acedo]

I'm not going to start a debate because of this, since this forums is not the correct place, nor I want to be banned because OT.

I will only say that the POV that Navarreses are not basques is pretty recent and it is thanks to UPN and their historical manipulation.

Documents from XX century. Rather we should say that it is not until after the Carlist Wars when that Navarra-País Vasco association is made.

Before, there is no historical evidence that the Basque provinces wish to have the Navarre "Fuero". Moreover, they have never wanted it. Even less Navarre wanted to extend it to the Basque provinces.

 

[Aldaron]

No. Neither the "Cortes de Navarra" nor the "Junta de Infanzones" never fought for a single Basque peculiarity, simply because they were not Basque (and they represented the people, the "Estados"). Neither the Fueros collect any Basque singularity.

The Basques were living in the north, far less populated, poor, with horrible roads and politically powerless. If you are Navarrese, you know it just having traveled around here. Also if you had studied the subject with some depth and independence.

We can also talk about architecture and many other cultural details that draw two Navarres. And the rich, large (then representative)and powerful was not exactly the Basque one.

Documents from XX century. Rather we should say that it is not until after the Carlist Wars when that Navarra-País Vasco association is made.

Before, there is no historical evidence that the Basque provinces wish to have the Navarre "Fuero". Moreover, they have never wanted it. Even less Navarre wanted to extend it to the Basque provinces.

LOL.

Look at the monument to the Fueros:

1.- “SE ERIGIÓ ESTE MONUMENTO PARA SIMBOLIZAR LA UNIÓN DE LOS NAVARROS EN LA DEFENSA DE SUS LIBERTADES, LIBERTADES AÚN MÁS DIGNAS DE AMOR QUE LA PROPIA VIDA”.

2.- “LA INCORPORACIÓN DE NAVARRA A LA CORONA DE CASTILLA FUE POR VÍA DE UNIÓN PRINCIPAL, RETENIENDO CADA REINO SU NATURALEZA ANTIGUA, ASÍ EN LEYES COMO EN TERRITORIO Y GOBIERNO”.

3.- “JURABAN NUESTROS REYES GUARDAR Y HACER GUARDAR LOS FUEROS, SIN QUEBRANTAMIENTO ALGUNO, MEJORÁNDOLOS SIEMPRE Y NUNCA EMPEORÁNDOLOS, Y QUE TODA TRANSGRESIÓN A ESTE JURAMENTO SERÍA NULA, DE NINGUNA EFICACIA Y VALOR”.

4.- “GU GAURKO EUSKALDUNOK GURE AITASOEN ILLEZKORREN OROIPENEAN, BILDU GERA EMEN GURE LEGEA GORDE NAI DEGULA ERAKUSTEKO”.
Traducción al castellano: “Nosotros, los vascos de hoy, nos hemos reunido aquí en inmortal recuerdo de nuestros antepasados, para demostrar que queremos seguir manteniendo nuestra ley”.

5.- “GU EUSKALDUNOK BESTE JAUN EZTEGU JAUNGOIKOA BAIZIK, ATZEKOARI OSTATUA EMATEN DEGU ONIRIZKERO BAINO EZTEGU NAI AIEN UZTARRIA JAZAN. ADITU EZAZUE ONDO, GURE SEMEAK”.
Traducción al castellano: “Nosotros los vascos, no tenemos más señor que Dios. Al extranjero le damos acogedora hospitalidad, pero no queremos soportar su yugo. Oidlo bien, hijos nuestros”.

I guess that the fact that Basque Fueros are derived from the ones from Navarre, given when these provinces were part of the Kingdom, means nothing to you. Common, even the name of the basque provinces were created as counties by the Kingdom of Navarra.

You say they didn't had interest in the basque provinces... Are you sure?

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudo_arbitral_del_rey_Enrique_II_de_Inglaterra

In roman times, the capital of the bascones was in Calagurris, actual La Rioja and many of the places in La Ribera were bascon places. We have documents that showed that even during the muslim invasions, many people in the lands of Bani Qasi spoke in basque.

And you talk about depth and independence. My sides. I'm still waiting to see how you debate the facts I gave before. Even in your land people voted PNV not so long ago.

 

[caquinoh]

No. Neither the "Cortes de Navarra" nor the "Junta de Infanzones" never fought for a single Basque peculiarity, simply because they were not Basque (and they represented the people, the "Estados"). Neither the Fueros collect any Basque singularity.

I don't know why the Fueros should collect any Basque singularity. They were a legal document wich contained the law and rights and prevented the power of the king. It didn't contain any Basque particularity because it wasn't necessary. It affected all people in Navarra no matter what they speak or where they lived.

The Basques were living in the north, far less populated, poor, with horrible roads and politically powerless. If you are Navarrese, you know it just having traveled around here. Also if you had studied the subject with some depth and independence.

We can also talk about architecture and many other cultural details that draw two Navarres. And the rich, large (then representative)and powerful was not exactly the Basque one.

Wow. That's an audacious sentence. You shuld provide great evidence of that. I have travelled there and I live there, and you too know that towns there still got many houses, churches and things made during this time. Just check any town in Baztan, Salazar, Roncal... It is a different aesthetic as you said, but not worst than the other.

And I'm sure Basque was widely spoken in XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII (this map was made in late XIX), even in places located in the southern half of the country(doesn't mean Romance didn't coexisted).

EDIT: As someones said, we shouldn't be discussing this here.

 

[Aldaron]

In fact, if there is interest in discussing this, we can always open a thread in the politics subforum and debate there. If anyones open it, please, link it.