National Idea Group Elimination

[Zak Preston]

Just a question from an outsider, why Poland rank that top? I never know people think Poland such OP before reading this thread! Could anyone explain a bit to me?

Look at Polish ideas: their military set is a bit weaker than Prussian\BB (but IMHO on par), plus nice ideas for stability.

Well, Poland does have some pretty good ideas. But, I think that part of its popularity in this thread comes from the idea that Poland (or at least the Commonwealth) is incredibly powerful in the current patch. Probably, too powerful. It's a flavor-of-the-month kind of thing.

Nope, we are just comparing NIs, not nations, starting positions and\or events. Purely idea sets.

 

[yerm]

Just a question from an outsider, why Poland rank that top? I never know people think Poland such OP before reading this thread! Could anyone explain a bit to me?

It's not Poland itself, it's the ideas. You could put Polish ideas on another country and they would still be awesome. 33% cavalry combat ability is pretty great. It means Poland just wipes the floor with anyone they can pull off a flank. They also get inf CA, disc, morale, and manpower, which makes their idea set overall one of the best militarily, I'd argue probably 3rd in the world after Brandenburg/Prussia and Japan. The supporting ideas really shine though. lower accepted cultures can be a big deal, and especially with +3 heretic tolerance too it means you can grab humanist and both ignore heretics and the reformation, and accept any significant culture for a good part of the game.

Brandenburg is obviously being picked because once the ambition is unlocked it is the undisputed strongest military idea set in the game. It's being downvoted because it's not very strong until it gets to there, with some argument that it's also on a country that is likewise not very strong until it gets to there, which is a bad combo. Funny enough I think Brandenburg's ideas would go much better on a different nation, particularly a very large western one, who can afford to deal with some crap to get to space marines.

Ottomans are being picked because of the utility and the order of their ideas. They would be good on almost any country in the game, not just a powerhouse like the Ottomans. Their strength is being able to heavily stack -core costs to obscene levels, and they get tolerance and culture acceptance just like Poland (heathens instead of heretics) so similar arguments to those benefits. It's military ideas are certainly weaker than Poland or Brandenburg, no question, but they're better than most and the discipline is in traditions.

 

[DominusNovus]

Speaking of Polish humanist-type ideas, I love staying Catholic as Poland, and basically farming any nearby center of Reformation (I weas lucky enough in my most recent playthrough that the Reformed Church started in Warsaw itself) for free PI. Basically, my missionaries become a way to keep my stab at +3, and I never have to invest a single adm point into it (unless you count the points devoted to going humanist).

 

[solidprice]

For July 14 because I'll be busy.

Ottomans: 36
Brandenburg:5
Poland: 31
Poland can into space!

Dead:
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

Long live Brandenburg.[/QUOTE]

 

[tobias.mb]

Ottomans: 36
Brandenburg: 3
Poland: 32

prussian ideas are missing the insanely good culture acceptance and tolerance ideas of pol / ottos.
among the 3 ottos are actually lacking a bit mil-quality wise (unless you count the janissaries as an ottoman idea?) so I'm voting for Poland

 

[Clownie]

Ottomans: 37
Brandenburg: 1
Poland: 32

Dead:
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

 

[caifanht]

Ottomans: 38(+1)
Brandenburg: -1(-2)
Poland: 32

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

Bye Brandenburg, your NIs are great, but just not as great as Poland and Kebab...
There are too many army related ideas in Brandenburg/Prussia NIs IMO, replacing one with other useful ideas will be nice. It won't really hurt the strength of their army.

Also Poland stronk!!!

 

[Ameron]

Shame on me, I wanted to be the one dealing the death blow to Brandenburg...

Ottomans: 39
Poland: 30

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

Up Ottomans, as already stated their NI set is the best.
Down Poland, because not as good as Ottomans.

 

[Phibs]

Epic showdown is epic.

Spoiler: pic

If only I knew who to cheer/vote for...

 

[TheDenzian]

Ottomans: 40 (+1)
Poland: 28 (-2)

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

Going to have to support the Ottomans with their front-loaded ideas and massive MP saving abilities, although Poland's military ideas are amazing.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Ottomans: 41 (+1)
Poland: 26 (-2)

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

as it stands I'm not overly familiar with either of them but I have seen a WC in the 1600s with ottomans so they must be better than pooland

 

[vodkaholic]

Ottomans: 39 (-2)
Poland: 27 (+1)

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

I feel like going against the tide because despite how good that -33% coring cost is, Poland's military ideas are just so much stronger and more consistent than Ottos.
Besides, the latter 3-4 Ottoman ideas oftentimes feel underwhelming IMO, while Poland's ideas feel rewarding throughout, with only a few lowpoints (regiment cost and the first idea.)

 

[Joey0wnt]

Ottomans: 40 (+1)
Poland: 25 (-2)

R.I.P. Poland

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

 

[lolada]

I like Poland ideas as a group a bit more overall, Ottos have couple of weaker ideas that can easily be discarded.

Ottomans: 38 (-2)
Poland: 26 (+1)

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

 

[saegoto]

Ottomans: 36
Poland: 27

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

 

[amanis]

I think we definitely should have end this. Most people began to vote for a stronger country, not ideas.
Poland has a better set, but Ottomans have a better order of ideas.
THE END

 

[Kwami]

Nope, we are just comparing NIs, not nations, starting positions and\or events. Purely idea sets.

Sure, that's how it's supposed to be. I just don't think that it is.

Ottomans: 34
Poland: 28

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

 

[Aquae Sulis]

I think we definitely should have end this. Most people began to vote for a stronger country, not ideas.

And what proof do you have. I mean Japan lasted for ages is nowhere near as 'strong' as Castille - and that is assuming we understand strength as a thing (more development?).

I ranked every idea without seeing the nation attached using a spreadsheet and I had these two in the top 5 (both ahead of Brandenburg). Castille and France also.

Going through this it is clear how much value is put on individually good ideas ahead of the whole idea set. Everyone remembers Japan and Prussia's strongest ideas but ignore the utter dross that fills the rest of the group...

 

[Clownie]

I think we definitely should have end this. Most people began to vote for a stronger country, not ideas.
Poland has a better set, but Ottomans have a better order of ideas.
THE END

Your opinion is not fact.

I find Ottoman ideas better purely because of their -33% core-creation cost idea. Poland has no expansionist ideas. Sure, the Ottomans have a lot of filler and Poland doesn't, but Millets is just that good.

 

[Krajzen]

Ottomans: 32
Poland: 29

Dead:
3. Brandenburg
4. France
5. Japan
6. Castile
7. Muscovy
8. Sweden
9. Teutonic Order
10. Austria
11. Netherlands
12. Byzantium
13. Papal States
14. Hungary
15. Ming
16. England
17. Portugal
18. Denmark
19. Burgundy

Poland - best military set in a game, comparable stability to ottos, its most crappy ideas are still better than ottoman worst ideas (of course both sets are amazing). Core discount is imho only major ottoman advantage and its great but by a little margin Polish war superiority is more decisive than lack of adm points.