National Focuses in the later stages of the game

[UP-Cedric]

Hi,

I am a big fan of WWW and I noticed that many of the focuses are set in the pre-war phase.
After war has started many focus on research (Army Innovation, Airforce Innovation, Wunderwaffen etc.) and the more political ones are almost out of the picture.

So I have this Idea:
Create some focuses that have a certain war-related prequesit.

For example "Schauprozess" (show trial), with the prequesit that you are at war and there are enemies within your core territory. You sack (=lose) one or several of you high ranking generals and gain more national unity.

Or "Scorched Earth", to destroy infrastructure and hamper the movement speed for enemy units on your terrain for the cost of infrastructure loss and a hit on national unity.

"Bolster Partisan movement", to destroy infrastructure on territory occupied by your enemy at the cost of infantry equippment for some time.

"Sportpalast Rede" or "National Adress", to use a large chunk of political power to bolster national unity and manpower after you suffer from prolonged bombing or have enemies within your core territories.

"Standgericht", "no step back" or "Военно-полевой суд", that Feldgendarmerie, military police and NKWD court martial officers and soldiers that retreat with the effect of raised organisation (due fear) and extra attrition and XP loss if a unit retreats from combat within core territory.

These are just some ideas to make national focuses more interesting during wartimes.

So what do you think?

 

[panzerzombie]

Some sort of repeatable NF or something to drain the accumulated PP would probably be needed, e.g. Daniel swam in PP and had apparantly not much left to focus on in 41

 

[agentgb]

@panzerzombie

problem is, there aren't any continuous focuses to sink PP(leadership points) points into, which basically is a total revised version of HOI3 leadership points (that were spent on research, doctrines, intel, diplomacy & officers),

In HOI3 a continuous sink for leadership points was improving your "officer ratio" (& Diplomacy) especially has the size of your army grew, and officer losses needed to be replaced also.
With the new focus tree, everything in hoi4 is a one time research, asides from PP only being used for diplomacy.

Even in the WWW there experience points cap out at 500, and aren't even used for the most part, either due to being too busy, or perhaps not wanting to upgrade units anymore due to factory efficiency.

I did make a thread suggesting for a return of the officer ratio, although a bit more fiddly.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/officer-ratio-military-staff.909387/

 

[MajorHeartfire]

These are good starts, if Paradox decides to go down that route.

I think the National Focuses being treated as a technology are supposed to be so the player can really choose their own way if they want. From the WWW, there were clearly a few national focuses that Germany had which I expect every nation would have (far left side dealing with industry and focus on various branches of the military). I would like to see these expanded a bit for the later portions of the war.

For Germany, I would hope for something that boosts the output of your naval shipyards, or allows a percentage of your other factories to contribute to your naval building. Of course, this is to simulate that an end-game Germany would probably need to rebuild their navy if they have beaten the USSR and are now in need of a naval invasion on the UK or even the United States. Honestly, the USSR could probably use a similar focus if they are in the Comintern still and moving towards a full communist victory over the world.

I'm sure the great minds at Paradox could come up with a lot more of these sorts of things. The beginning of the National Focus trees are all about the beginning of the war and the political/diplomatic reasons it began. The end of the tech tree should all be about how the nations can be further empowered to push through some of the additional challenges they may have as the war near's the end.

 

[afghanrabbit]

For Germany I would suggest foci to bring some of the South American countries or Mexico into the war.

 

[Starisc]

I noticed the same issue that Johan and Daniel were neglecting that mechanic.
Here is the link to WWW #8 when Daniel went over his national foci choices:

I had the impression he hadn't touched it in a while and had no real options left at this stage of the game. His leadership points (1580 at the time) support this. Maybe late game national focus trees are yet to be completed or tweaked?

I agree with @delimeat567 that even in the later stages of WWWII nations sometimes implemented radically new national policies. Just imagine Italy's traditional choice to switch to the winning side once things go sour (which could be countered by the German decision to liberate Mussolini and install him as a puppet dictator).

I could also imagine that they find more uses for leadership points in upcoming expansions (espionage,@agentgb 's officer/ war leader mechanics, expanded mechanics on internal politics and coups, etc).

@BjornB , as you did such a great job on answering the twitch stream questions, maybe you can give us some more insight into late-game uses of leadership points and national foci?!?

 

[UP-Cedric]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

The Idea is that it would be nice to keep the National Focus interesting and that new focuses can help you if you are hard pressed in certain situation.
For example you can switch to another doctrine branche if you e.g. need to witch from Blitzkieg to Defense of the Reich (remember the Wheelchair Rocket Launcher guy ).
It would be cool if focus trees could compliment that.

 

[Denkt]

I think the main point of national focues was to make peace time a bit more fun and interesting. Givn the nature of war it may be tricky to design pure war releated national focuses that make much sense.

 

[DaAvenger]

I think the main point of national focues was to make peace time a bit more fun and interesting. Givn the nature of war it may be tricky to design pure war releated national focuses that make much sense.

Agreed. A large part of the focus tree is dedicated to diplomatic and political moves that aren't really modelled in other game systems. You can also see that the focus tree is becoming pretty fragmented towards the end, with lots of exclusive paths depending on who you allied with and declared war on. This would only get worse if you made the tree deeper.

It also seems like the pace of play is the main factor in the underutilization of both PP and XP. In a slower paced game, you could do a lot with switching out ministers and design companies to maximize your bonuses, which would burn a ton of PP. Additionally, some of the more drastic diplomatic options are pretty PP intensive, and those have also been largely ignored.

 

[mdw1985]

Some sort of repeatable NF or something to drain the accumulated PP would probably be needed, e.g. Daniel swam in PP and had apparantly not much left to focus on in 41

I saw this too. I hope there is something, which can be done with pp in the late game, so that they stay a precious resource.

I am also not sure, if there should be more national focusses for more diversity in gameplay. Maybe something, which is unlocked only, when special situations apply

 

[Bernard Black]

Yea, i too noticed the massive amount of PP Daniel had acumulated, over 2000 IIRC at the end. There really doesnt seem to be much to do with it at this point for Germany and thats not good for a feature to become meaningless halfway trough the game.
Repeatable Foci which drain PP over time could be one thing. Something like trading PP for Manpower maybe. But NF which would just exchange PP for something else like a currency would only be a crutch. I think they need a lot of games to see, what a German Nation or any other for that matter needs at that point in time (1941/42) and create NFs that allow the player to further help him along his choosen path.

Regards

 

[panzerzombie]

Have a look at DH, there are so many national decisions which could be - recurring or not - wartime NFs. For example:
Ersatz/Substitution giving a trickle of rare materials obtained from population or waste.
Requisitoning of civilian ships / trucks / transport planes for military use.
Conversion of available obsolete chassis into Tankdestroyers and Selfpropelled Guns ( -x amount chassis + x amount of TD/SPGs)

 

[Denkt]

Maybe a simple action would be: -1 political point per day for staying at war. As you gain 2 points per day war would halve your political point generation and if you do a national focus (-1 point per day) you would gain no political power while at war if you do national focus, thus you can not do them so often if you need to do something else like changing a law.

 

[Rubidium]

For Germany I would suggest foci to bring some of the South American countries or Mexico into the war.

I hope not. If the problem is that countries are swimming in excess PP and need a way to dump it, then these later foci would presumably end up being used in basically every game. So putting grossly ahistorical ones there seems to be defeating the purpose.

Much better to have ones that do things like a repeatable focus that gives a temporary boost to e.g. battle-planning; that would be useful enough to use without radically altering things.

 

[GhengisKhan]

I didnt think foci used PP just a certian amount of time. Isn't the PP only for political interactions and changing political leaders and research companies etc?? Why are people equation the stored up PP to the focus tree?

Maybe i need to reread the diaries.

 

[agentgb]

I didnt think foci used PP just a certian amount of time. Isn't the PP only for political interactions and changing political leaders and research companies etc?? Why are people equation the stored up PP to the focus tree?

Maybe i need to reread the diaries.

here they are dude, the diarys that mostly cover the use of PP:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/development-diary-14-national-focuses.846137/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evelopment-diary-5th-of-february-2016.906667/

oh and this one

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-developer-diary-12-internal-politics.830272/

 

[GhengisKhan]

Well only one of those is over the focus tree the other are the political diaries. I still dont see anything to suggest that NF's use PP at all.

 

[agentgb]

Well only one of those is over the focus tree the other are the political diaries. I still dont see anything to suggest that NF's use PP at all.

hmmm it's a bit misty...

A national focus will give you some benefits when you finish it, like inheriting Austria, allow troop-movements into the Rhineland, remove Swedish neutrality, grant you severe research bonuses, access to another tech-research slot, and many many more things.

thats taken from the first diary i linked, most of those to my knowledge use PP, here is another misty quote from the last diary i linked

National Goals
A national goal is something you set up as a promise or mission to the nation. Picking one will cost you political power, but you'll usually get it back plus more reward if you can show that you were able to accomplish it. It might be a specific historical goal (which is a great way of pointing the AI in the right direction btw) or something more lose, like a campaign of improving the nations roads.

We modeled this mechanic around how Hitler historically secured his grip on Germany and started WWII, the idea being that you need to pull off some stuff to build confidence in your ruling powers. There were groups convinced that he would bring ruin to Germany and were about to stage a coup vs Hitler as he went from breaking treaties by putting German military presence in the Rhineland and onwards to annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia. Hitler gambled right that none of the League of Nations members felt strong enough to flex their muscles and stop him. I have a feeling there was a generous serving of good luck there, but nevertheless the effect was that his political power grew - he had been right when everyone else argued caution. Well at least short term, and this let him dictate policy without being questioned.

unless national focus & national goal are one of the same thing, they seem to do the same thing in some cases? more or less? and if it doesn't, you get back your PP for completing it, reason why your be swiming in excess PP

so i guess your "research" national focus of annexing austria & spending PP on a national goal that you will promise to annex austria? then you get back all your PP for completing it.

Fortify the westwall links in with the occupation of the rhineland

anti comintern pact national goal will mean "researching alliance with italy" in your national focus tree, somthing that you could use PP for, to secure an alliance with italy anyway surely?

i mean, looking at the national focus tree, alot of those options look like they belong to diplomacy to me? which uses PP i would think?

(also apparently the national goal system is obsolete and is now instead the focus system) i think, which i'm guessing, if your playing germany, instead of wasting PP, you can instead "research/select" the focus to ally with italy? Since it's one of your national focus.

 

[panzerzombie]

National Goals
A national goal is something you set up as a promise or mission to the nation. Picking one will cost you political power, but you'll usually get it back plus more reward if you can show that you were able to accomplish it. It might be a specific historical goal (which is a great way of pointing the AI in the right direction btw) or something more lose, like a campaign of improving the nations roads.

Apparantly in the first WWW at 9:00 the very first NF is activated and 1 point of PP immediately reduced from germanys PP pool. After starting the game he received 2 PP daily instead of the customary 3 ( 2 basic + 50% for Hitler ). When he got his first NF Rheinland on March.11.36 at 16:01 his PP-pool jumped from 118 to 233 ( Rheinland was +120PP according to description ) - its a bit unclear because the screen shifted to Johan and game was paused - but it seemed that he only got the promised 120PP and none of the spent points back. At the same time UK got his first NF and went from 69 PP to 60PP ( why I don´t know).

This ofc could have been changed in later builds...