Naples... avoiding the wait?

[dstarsboy]

When I play a game as Naples, I literally have to wait some 50 years for the perfect circumstances to arise (aka, I have a decent army/navy and Aragon just suffered a big defeat and they have minimal allies) so that i can break the PU with Aragon. If I try this any sooner I'm crushed.

However, by then I've basically wasted a good portion of the game waiting around so I can't get a fulfilling end game because I run out of time.

Does anyone have a technique to break PU safely/quickly without the long wait?

 

[Dustman]

Wait for disastrous war for Aragon and attack right after? Or even better, don't play as Naples

 

[Wardok]

Most nations that end up in a PU have to wait for the right oppurtunity.

 

[magzh]

Well as all nations, which start as minor PU or vassal almost always have to wait for the perfect moment to strike (with an exception of sweden, which can basically annihilate denmark and norway almost from the game start) and it will vary from game to game.

 

[blaidd]

50 years really isn't that long. The game lasts almost 400 years. If you get independence in 1494 that's still plenty of time to do anything you want.

 

[LDSkinny]

I wish that you could declare independence while your overlord was at war. That's part of the problem with vassals/PUs right now, since at most only one can ever rebel against you, since if one does the others are not allowed to until the first war is finished. It also makes it harder to pull off independence.

Though one sneaky thing you can do to break a PU is to get relations as high as possible with a large nation that hates your overlord, then the day you declare war you ask for an alliance and call them to arms. Since CtA doesn't have diplomatic cooldown time, you can call them immediately and the 60 day limit doesn't apply. It doesn't always work though, since you can't really tell if they will actually ally with you until you start the war. I think you could probably pull it off with Naples by trying to ally France, which would all but guarantee your victory if you could call them in.

 

[Anthropoid]

50 years really isn't that long. The game lasts almost 400 years. If you get independence in 1494 that's still plenty of time to do anything you want.

True. But I have to be honest, I'm not gonna play Naples or any similar nation that starts shackled in a PU. How much fun is it to sit and watch the game on max speed for 45 minutes waiting for notice that Aragon has just been crushed to emerge from the popups?

What would be nifty is if someone who had a bit modding ability and some knowledge of the history would make a 'scenario' start in which Naples opportunity to break from from its PU is imminent. After all, if you do play Naples, you're not really "playing" until such time as the opportunity arises, eh?

Would be nice if PI included a bit more 'flexibility' in how vassals/PUs work.

 

[blaidd]

What would be nifty is if someone who had a bit modding ability and some knowledge of the history would make a 'scenario' start in which Naples opportunity to break from from its PU is imminent. After all, if you do play Naples, you're not really "playing" until such time as the opportunity arises, eh?

There is a mod that releases all vassals and PUs at the start of the game. It's in the Steam Workshop.

 

[dstarsboy]

Well as all nations, which start as minor PU or vassal almost always have to wait for the perfect moment to strike (with an exception of sweden, which can basically annihilate denmark and norway almost from the game start) and it will vary from game to game.

Yeah, this is my problem. My only other PUed game I played was with Sweden and you can break it almost right away. I guess I got spoiled there and assumed other PUs could be handled the same way. ;(

 

[Anthropoid]

There is a mod that releases all vassals and PUs at the start of the game. It's in the Steam Workshop.

Ah cool! So it wouldn't be too hard to:

1. Download the mod
2. Make a copy of the mod folder
3. Make another copy of the mod folder and name it whatever you want "Naples Starts Free.mod"
4. Open up those files
5. Delete reference to all countries except the one you want to play (e.g., Naples)
6. Play with Naples (or whatever) not in PU/vassalage right from the start, but everyone else the same as in vanilla!

There yah go OP!

 

[dstarsboy]

I wish that you could declare independence while your overlord was at war. That's part of the problem with vassals/PUs right now, since at most only one can ever rebel against you, since if one does the others are not allowed to until the first war is finished. It also makes it harder to pull off independence.

Or it would be good if breaking PUs as a player worked the same as it does for the AI. When the AI breaks PUs with us, we simply get a friendly message and a CB, if we break PU with them then it's immediate war with all of their allies. If they simply got a CB, that could give us enough time to form some alliances before they used it on us.

 

[SpikeyMarshmall]

Ah cool! So it wouldn't be too hard to:

1. Download the mod
2. Make a copy of the mod folder
3. Make another copy of the mod folder and name it whatever you want "Naples Starts Free.mod"
4. Open up those files
5. Delete reference to all countries except the one you want to play (e.g., Naples)
6. Play with Naples (or whatever) not in PU/vassalage right from the start, but everyone else the same as in vanilla!

There yah go OP!

Surely if the OP is going to use mods, they might as well just use the console? Declare war, then Yes man or whatever the command is

Getting out of a PU is always going to be slow, the only assured fast way is to use the console / mod but then that will disable Iron man. Alternatively restart enough times and maybe in one instance they'll be crushed very quickly!

 

[Yenzen]

You don't need to wait that long!

1: Even a moderate defeat the Castille will often do the trick.
2: The enemy isn't that good at using its navy. You may be able to simply win by having a moderate sized army of 12-15k men ready to receive any landing attempts from Aragon.
3: Even if they're busy in a war they're winning, sieging Sicily is often possible, quickly giving you enough war score to bust out of the union.

 

[unmerged(126586)]

Possible gamey, savescummy technique:

Turn on monthly autosaves. Wait until a decent war breaks out--doesn't have to crush Aragon, but at least challenge it. Then reload and break the union. The other war should happen anyway and now you have other people attacking Aragon too. Might not work all the time, but should work on occasion.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

Improve relations with Morocco from Day 1 for FBR and go for exploration ideas... you might not want to break out of PU that early on. Being a junior partner or a vassal isn't that bad - if you're OK with not being able to wage wars on your own for a while.

* As Perm (vassal under Muscovy) I colonized my way into Siberia before DoW'ing Muscovy for independence. Not a really serious challenge, I should say.
* As Sukhothai (junior partner under Ayutthaya) I simply waited and did nothing in the mean time, confident that they'll lose the union one day. It's easier when a union naturally dissolves, because you can ally the nations you've been improving relations on almost right off the bat, unlike wating an independence war where you need to win before you could ally people. I conquered Arakan, moved the capital there, abandoned Sukhothai and GTFO.
* As Khmer (vassal under Ayutthaya), I merc'ed it up and DoW'd Ayutthaya, taking how many loans I know not.
* As Norway (junior partner under Denmark), I almost felt sad that the union broke. I was colonizing North America, and I could finally DoW and annex the natives.. but at the same time I lost the protection from Denmark and her allies.

I wouldn't say Naples is really hopeless since it still has a port and you can at least colonize. I mean... Conquest of Italy can wait, and you might as well be doing things while you're waiting anyways. In many ways I assume it'd be easier than, say, the Anatolian OPMs like Dulkadir or Ramazan. I'm still trying to figure out how to make France give me my core Labourd in the HYW as Armagnac... DoW'ing France for independence will be so epic.

Being under personal union is still easier than vassalage. There's a chance it dissolves, unlike vassalage which can only happen if somebody forces release.

 

[jockedahl]

It's not that hard to win against Aragon.

Just as long as they aren't allied to some major power that will join the war.

The key is just spamming galleys until you have more than Aragon AI. Go for around 18-20 galleys to make sure you have dominance.

Won't cost you too much given how cheap galleys are.

Then build and army of 12 troops maybe. 10 infantry 2 cavalry.

Start the war. Deal with any neighboring enemy allies like Urbino or Papal states if they are allied with aragon.

Keep chasing the Aragonese fleet so they can't ship over troops to naples.

If you're lucky you can also trap a part of Aragons army on Scicily, they often put like 8k there in the beginning. Now you can easily wipe them, after that you just keep gaining warscore since you hold Naples and you can easily siege all the Aragonese Islands and make sure Aragon can't ship more troops in since you should have won all naval battles and weakened their navy.

This can be done really soon. Just start spamming galleys from start and build some troops.

Don't be afraid to take out 10-15 loans in the war and use war taxes. Loans aren't as bad as most players think.

After you have won. You will now continue having naval dominance over Aragon.

Ally with Castille for example and just retake the rest of Scicily etc.

 

[jovialbard]

Or it would be good if breaking PUs as a player worked the same as it does for the AI. When the AI breaks PUs with us, we simply get a friendly message and a CB, if we break PU with them then it's immediate war with all of their allies. If they simply got a CB, that could give us enough time to form some alliances before they used it on us.

This makes sense. Also, I agree that it makes sense for PUs to be able to break away during war, I'm not sure what that restriction is for... maybe to keep things from snowballing out of control for the leader of the PU?

Also, why can't you vassalize a PU? A PU is so much worse than a vassal, no money and 50 years to annex, vassalizing would be an upgrade.

 

[grommile]

This makes sense. Also, I agree that it makes sense for PUs to be able to break away during war, I'm not sure what that restriction is for... maybe to keep things from snowballing out of control for the leader of the PU?

The game does not deal gracefully with Country A fighting alongside Country B in one war and against Country B in another; Paradox try their very best to ensure that it can't happen.

Also, why can't you vassalize a PU? A PU is so much worse than a vassal, no money and 50 years to annex, vassalizing would be an upgrade.

I'm tempted to say that you just answered your own question

 

[Adimon6]

In my game Aragon almost instantly was crushed by Castille, during the war their king died with negative prestige and in peace deal Sicily was returned to my Naples. So if you have such a bad luck, just restart. Or build large army and navy and declare independence war, I think you should win

 

[StatikShocker]

naples stinks, because once you are free (aragon/castille/portugal permalliance will hate you), you have to blast your way into the HRE to really do anything in Italy. or fight the ottomans (and lose). or kill the pope, aka no one will like you.