Naming system is awful

[Solo_Adhémar]

Sure but remember that lowborns in the game are hardly real lowborns. It would make no sense that the game was throwing commoner knights at you. It's clear they're mostly representing the lowest strata of the nobility.

Lock by date is something the game needs desperately, for heraldry, for naming, for clothing...

I actually had bishops in mind more precisely, as such a list would often look quite different from its contemporary list of popular noble names. Anyway I dont think there are that many available sources for truely lowborn people when it comes to naming patterns (a bit more towards the end of the game's timeframe but I hardly think it would be consistent from culture to culture to be exploitable).

But yes not peasants per se, but a mix of lower nobility and actual people of low birth. If the weight are additionnals like they are for their emblems system then all you have to do is to throw a few actual historical bishops names into the mix to make it a bit less redundant with the generic list (reasonnable enough to implement and optionnal enough to not change anything if/when not used). I'm not sure the dynastic weight system is enough in that regard but I'll admit it's also not as critical as having the possibility to tailor different lists for each starting dates.

 

[DmUa]

True. Greek and Scandinavian names in pre rurik and pre christian russia are annoying.

 

[JtW]

They're fantasy. They may be fun, but very often they don't make sense. It's very obvious they were a Game of Thrones thing, since most historical house mottos are, at the earliest, a very uncommon 1400's thing, and then they became popular afterwards. So, hardly a Medieval feature.

The whole core concept of the game is fantasy. Caring about dynasties was also hardly a Medieval feature but it's what the game is about. All of its consequences (matrilineal marriages, getting a game over because your heir is of another dynasty, etc.) are ahistorical fantasy. Seems weird to me to get hung up on mottos in particular. They work well with the concept of dynasties, are fun, and are not intrusive for people who don't care about them.

 

[Leoreth]

Caring about your dynasty was hardly a medieval feature?

Edit: while incredulously phrased, the question isn't meant to be sarcastic. I feel like this argument needs elaborating upon as it seems to be false on the face of it.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I actually had bishops in mind more precisely, as such a list would often look quite different from its contemporary list of popular noble names. Anyway I dont think there are that many available sources for truely lowborn people when it comes to naming patterns (a bit more towards the end of the game's timeframe but I hardly think it would be consistent from culture to culture to be exploitable).

Early bishops (900-1200) mostly had the same names as the nobility, and yes, sources for lowborn names are common from the 1300's on, not before. I don't see it as a problem if you're willing to swallow Eudes, Isembards and Enguerrands coexisting with Jeans and Philippes and Thomas, more Christian baptismal names.

The whole core concept of the game is fantasy. Caring about dynasties was also hardly a Medieval feature but it's what the game is about. All of its consequences (matrilineal marriages, getting a game over because your heir is of another dynasty, etc.) are ahistorical fantasy. Seems weird to me to get hung up on mottos in particular. They work well with the concept of dynasties, are fun, and are not intrusive for people who don't care about them.

I don't agree, I think some of the game's mechanics accurately reflect many of the attitudes of Medieval nobles towards lineage and dynasty. Obviously not the game over, and of course not the prevalence of matrilineal marriages, but the way Medieval nobles obsessed over inheritance, ancestry, lineage and descent is key to understanding why, for example, the Iberian kings usually split their realms into smaller kingdoms so that all their children could be kings.

The lineage wasn't "dead" if no male heirs existed, but the patrilineal line took precedence, even if life moved on. Among all the gamey or ahistorical things that the game has (dynasty points that unlock "better genetics", I mean, wtf) mottos are the strangest, because i'ts so minor and specific, yet so, so wrong in period and the way they're presented...

If they had chosen to make 15th Century personal badges, or secular orders of chivalry, into a feature, it would have been equally ahistorical for 1066, but at least it would have had some basis on a portion of Medieval history...

 

[sickboy2212]

My only complaint is that in my current game I rarely got to name my heirs because my kings would live a long time and by the time his heir would inherit, he would have kids of his own already.

So the lineage is this : King Pierre I - King Pierre II - King Pierre III - King Pierre IV - King Obizzo - Emperor Pierre I - Emperor Pierre II - Emperor Pierre III - Emperor Piere IV


And guess who's the current heir? Future Emperor Pierre V and his son Pierre of course...


I started as Piedmonte. How few French names do y'all know Paradox?

 

[Chlodio]

John Lackland was the third (fourth?) male son of Henry II, after all. Never supposed to rule, even if he may have been his father's favourite.

Interestingly Edward I named his firstborn son John.

They won't. The game weights on father and grandfather names, but after the first 3 it just chooses a random name.

I'm not sure if we are in disagreement. Take Polish names for example:

        pat_grf_name_chance = 40
        mat_grf_name_chance = 10
        father_name_chance = 10

This means that every time a son is born there is 40% chance for a random name, and after the paternal grandfather's name has been used it drops to 80%, so it's very probable that have four sons, the first three get a random name and the youngest paternal grandfather's.

 

[JtW]

I don't agree, I think some of the game's mechanics accurately reflect many of the attitudes of Medieval nobles towards lineage and dynasty. Obviously not the game over, and of course not the prevalence of matrilineal marriages, but the way Medieval nobles obsessed over inheritance, ancestry, lineage and descent is key to understanding why, for example, the Iberian kings usually split their realms into smaller kingdoms so that all their children could be kings.

These are two completely different things, though. You can't just move the goalposts and pretend you scored... Caring about what will become of your kids is hardly modeled by CK. CK3 at least does something in that direction by time-locking primo and by giving you renown from landed kinsmen, but it's not nearly enough as evidenced by all the threads about succession management. Caring about the family name is completely anachronistic, and this is what I was referring to. It is also arguably the core concept of the whole series.

The lineage wasn't "dead" if no male heirs existed, but the patrilineal line took precedence, even if life moved on. Among all the gamey or ahistorical things that the game has (dynasty points that unlock "better genetics", I mean, wtf) mottos are the strangest, because i'ts so minor and specific, yet so, so wrong in period and the way they're presented...

Again, I don't see a compelling argument here. You list something way less historical, and way more weird yourself, and then pretend like mottos are "it" anyway. We have heirs to kingdoms and empires marrying lowborns because they are amazonian geniuses. We have rampant incest. We have three Jerusalems next to each other because of serial crusades. We have rulers going commando. All nobles are married off the second they turn 16. But sure, mottos are the ahistorical thing in the game. You chose a weird hill to die on, my friend.

If they had chosen to make 15th Century personal badges, or secular orders of chivalry, into a feature, it would have been equally ahistorical for 1066, but at least it would have had some basis on a portion of Medieval history...

And I wouldn't mind if they did that because it would fit the game concept and provide additional role playing material. But again, you unwittingly provide a counterargument to your own point here because there are at least some family mottos hailing to 15th century and even earlier. "Dieu et mon droit" for example.

 

[Chlodio]

All nobles are married off the second they turn 16.

I mean I kinda agree and not. I have data of +100 medieval consorts and the average age when they were first married was 16. I have less data on men, but the average age at first marriage for them seems to be 19. Regardless not all sons should be married at age of 16. In fact, the game doesn't even understand the marriage, it in effect it penalizes rulers who are not married when historically there are many rulers who stopped marrying after they had secured few sons, e.g. Philip IV whose spouse died nearly a decade before him and he never remarried, with CK3 logic he would have married immediately.

 

[morhange]

To weight names you don't need to add them in repeatedly. It is a natively supported feature, though not widely used in vanilla. Here are the English weights, for example

male_names = {
    14 = { # most common
        William
    }
    8 = { # second most common
        John
    }
    48 = { # other common names
        Adam Geoffrey Henry Hugh Nicholas Peter Ralph Richard Robert Roger Simon Thomas Walter
    }
    30 = { # everything else
        Alan Albert Alexander Alfred Andrew Anselm Arnold Arthur Aubrey Baldrick Christopher David Edmund Edward Eric Eustace Fulk George Gerald Gilbert
        Godfrey Gregory Guy Humphrey Jocelyn Jordan Laurence Lionel Mark Martin Matthew Maurice Michael Paul Philip
        Randolph Reginald Stephen Teague Theobald Waleran
    } 
}

What do the numbers stand for (14, 8, 48, 30)?

 

[Zhetone]

What do the numbers stand for (14, 8, 48, 30)?

Probability out of 100 (so 14% chance, 8%, etc.)

 

[Chlodio]

What do the numbers stand for (14, 8, 48, 30)?

I'm not opposed to a more detailed breakdown like that, but if they would have to do it for every culture, I would also accept this:

male_names = {
    80 = {
        William Richard John Robert Hugo Roger Walter Thomas Ralph Geoffrey Henry Adam Peter Simon Nicholas Alan Gilbert Stephen
    }
    20 = {
        Alan Albert Alexander Alfred Andrew Anselm Arnold Arthur Aubrey Baldrick Christopher David Edmund Edward Eric Eustace Fulk George Gerald Gilbert Godfrey Gregory Guy Humphrey Jocelyn Jordan Laurence Lionel Mark Martin Matthew Maurice Michael Paul Philip
            Randolph Reginald Teague Theobald Waleran  
    }
}

 

[wilcoxchar]

In my games the Ai tends to use the options to name after ancestors and parents a decent amount - it was problematic actually because Sunifred got introduced one generation due to the child being born a Muslim Catalan woman (accidentally landed my heir, idk how he chose his spouse) and now five generations later I’m on French emperor Sunfried III (a gothic and apparent Spanish name)

You mean like how English monarchs ended up getting George once, a German king's name, and then a few centuries later had had six Georges as monarch? Or how Spain suddenly got Felipe and Carlos, from French and German names respectively, and then suddenly a few centuries later they had five Felipes and four Carloses? This is how names often get introduced into regnal lines and then continue.

 

[purringmaggot]

i'm glad when rare names are picked for kids because the 1066 start in france/england is really confusing when you have your spymaster duke william telling you, king william, about your vassal, count william, attempting the murder of your other vassal, baron william etc

 

[Roxas15]

As the naming system stand now, it is bland and unimaginative, because Louis the German will name their heir Foroen, who will name their son Maurifi, who will name their son Foroen, who will name their son Gozhelm.

Agree, but why the hell is Louis the german named french in the first place? That makes the whole idea of naming people according to their culture kind of pointless.

 

[Zhetone]

Agree, but why the hell is Louis the german named french in the first place? That makes the whole idea of naming people according to their culture kind of pointless.

no idea considering he is called Ludwig in German, and having a French name with "the German" is completely stupid looking

 

[Chlodio]

Agree, but why the hell is Louis the german named french in the first place? That makes the whole idea of naming people according to their culture kind of pointless.

Because that's just Anglicisation. Ludwig, Louis and Clovis are all the same name, they would be written in Latin as Ludovicus.

 

[klopkr]

Ck2 had a system to weight names. It didn't really ever feel worth doing though.

 

[Chlodio]

i'm glad when rare names are picked for kids because the 1066 start in france/england is really confusing when you have your spymaster duke william telling you, king william, about your vassal, count william, attempting the murder of your other vassal, baron william etc

Nice hyperbole. Twenty names being used by 80% of people =!= 90% of people using one name.

 

[Adonnus]

Added to this complaint I would like the option of choosing a name from a pop out list from the appropriate category, since it is tiresome to click the button 100 times to find one you like, or if you go past one you like and have to click it 100 times again to get it back.