MyMap: Yogoslavia's 16 provinces

[Ivan Bajlo]

But I'm not saying Venice in the game should have slavonic culture. I'm ignorant of the reasons it was suppressed.

Well in my mod (not released yet) I got Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian, Montenegrin and Dalmatian cultures! :rofl:

That solves most issues which nation should get which culture. :rofl:

Only things that remains is to get Agung to make me custom map for my mod with Ragusa in it. (hopefully MKJ won't kill me )

 

[Norrefeldt]

You obliviously have zero knowledge of Ottoman conquest of this region, Serbia was re-conquered several times by Hungary and Ottoman's, central and eastern Bosnia was conquered in 1463 almost without a fight ( "fell with a whisper"), Hum aka Herzegovina resisted until 1482 under local dukes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Province,_Ottoman_Empire

Bihac was Croatian/Hungarian city/fort all the way until 1592! Several attempts were made to recapture Bihac in following century but after 1699 it was become permanent part of Bosnia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihac

Northern part of Bosnia was conquered by Hungary and turned into buffer zone against Ottoman's.

Lika and Slavonia fell to Ottoman's after defeat at Mohacs since Lika was barely defended especially after disastrous battle at Krabava field half a century earlier in which most of Croatian nobility was killed, both provinces were recovered during 1683-1699 war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_union_with_Hungary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krbava_field

I may not have the detailed knowledge you have, but on the other hand all and every border change isn't possible to model, not in this area, nor in others. That's not something we strive for, but a reasonable balance between details and playability, with balance and consistency between regions.

You mean poor?

Yes, compared to Italy and Germany. That's one reason not to let it have higher province-density.

Sea zones would nice if they actually worked right now less of them is better since to properly represent Adriatic alone we would need to split it into dozen zones to prevent anyone form having friendly water advantage by taking province or two.

I don't understand this. So just because we cannot have your ideal situation we better ruin this aspect of the game totally? sorry, I really don't share your view.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Well we have to decide if we want to model Montenegro.

OK, that's true. Either Macva or Montenegro. I'm fine with either.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

I may not have the detailed knowledge you have, but on the other hand all and every border change isn't possible to model, not in this area, nor in others. That's not something we strive for, but a reasonable balance between details and playability, with balance and consistency between regions.

If we wanted to model every border change it would go similar as for culture, there wasn't major Ottoman advance in Croatia but bloody battles for even smallest piece. Constant raids across border, it took Ottomans almost 200 years to get Croatia down to "remains of remains" and they lost almost all what they have conquered in 1683-1699 war. So current provinces represent only major border changes.

Yes, compared to Italy and Germany. That's one reason not to let it have higher province-density.

Again same goes as for population numbers, war has tendency to downgrade value of land.

I don't understand this. So just because we cannot have your ideal situation we better ruin this aspect of the game totally? sorry, I really don't share your view.

I get really annoyed when I need to chase few ships across numerous sea zones just because darn things won't sink but if I leave them alone they just keep coming back landing troops and blocking ports.

With single sea zone I don't have to think about that, I can park my fleet and prevent them from annoying me.

More sea zones are also good AI exploit since AI is to dumb to protect entire coast and player can easily land 100000 troops with relatively small navy this way he better have naval supremacy.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Yes, compared to Italy and Germany. That's one reason not to let it have higher province-density.

For example Brandenburg Mark was the poorest lands of the Empire until the XVII century (even at the times of Gross Kurfurst, tinny Kleve-Mark was giving about half of all state treasury, 1/4 - Baltic Prussia). In AGCEEP it is some kind of richest land of the region (game play reasons?)... So, of course in compare to Milan, Venice or Saxony, Balkans are poorer…

 

[almoravid]

For example Brandenburg Mark was the poorest lands of the Empire until the XVII century

Indeed, I always wondered why Brandenburg had a higher tax value then Saxony. Something that sorely needs changing. They should be made richer by events later in the game.

As to the original question, I wouldn't say that Corsica was richer or more populous then Serbia. If Sardinia is two provinces, and Sicily(admittedly a richer isle) is three, how many should Serbia have? I always thought it was ugly how easy it was to control entire countries like Georgia, as opposed to some isle of Rhodos. With this map, it's a little bit more of a balance, at last.

 

[Norrefeldt]

The HC has voted on Sardinia, and IIRC only MKJ supported two provinces. Sicily has two.

 

[G-Klav]

You fail to see what I am talking about ( only Jinnai understands). the issue is revenue, with the proposed slavic land setups, the most likely scenario will be that Serbia will start attacking minor slavic nations and within no time could have up to 8 provinces. In the meantime an attack on cattaro is entirely possible especially if a core exists.
So, back to Ven. When cattaro is attacked by Serbia , how is Venice going to raise the Troops to defend cattaro ( with ships ?) . They need money to defend cattaro.
The venetian income has already been steadily depleted from Vanillla to AGCEEP,

This has come about due to :
1. loss of manpower due to NO slavic culture.
2. As stated above, no provincial attachment with the capital as it is now.
3. extra cots within europe. especially the Austrian one.

The issue of the OE taking cattaro is not a problem, the issue is the manpower and revenue of Serbia in taking all the slavic states.

You need to release that Venice is not a visitor in these slavic issues, but basically a "slavic" nation trying to survive in its slavic lands.

Has these issues been tested in the new map??
Will giving Slavic culture back to Venice help,? do not think so.
removal of all cores on venetian slavic lands (except the OE) help, ? do not think so as the AI sees hitlist as a greater importance.

You tell me how Venice can maintain their revenue from AGCEEP and the new map game.

i am talking about 20 to 30 % less revenue per year. and not 10 ducats a year.

Your statement no. 2 is wrong. If you are fully naval, you don't get a loss of revenue from provinces that aren't connected to your capital.

Besides, Cattaro should be Hungarian at the start of the game, just as Dalmatia should. That is what MKJ said, anyway.

 

[Toio]

:

confused: in what universe do you live?

In this universe, if you live thereabouts you will know about this.

By 1919 all Istria passed to Italy, but the Italian peace treaty of 1947 gave some of it to Yugoslavia. The northwestern section passed to Italy in 1954; under the 1975 Osimo Treaty, Italy gave up claims to coastal lands south of Trieste.

there is more info in regards to the osimo treaty

 

[almoravid]

:

In this universe, if you live thereabouts you will know about this.

By 1919 all Istria passed to Italy, but the Italian peace treaty of 1947 gave some of it to Yugoslavia. The northwestern section passed to Italy in 1954; under the 1975 Osimo Treaty, Italy gave up claims to coastal lands south of Trieste.

there is more info in regards to the osimo treaty

I guess he rather was commenting on national/cultural makeup of Istria.

 

[Toio]

So to aid MKJ against these pagan's...



You obliviously have zero knowledge of Ottoman conquest of this region, Serbia was re-conquered several times by Hungary and Ottoman's, central and eastern Bosnia was conquered in 1463 almost without a fight ( "fell with a whisper"), Hum aka Herzegovina resisted until 1482 under local dukes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Province,_Ottoman_Empire

Bihac was Croatian/Hungarian city/fort all the way until 1592! Several attempts were made to recapture Bihac in following century but after 1699 it was become permanent part of Bosnia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihac

Northern part of Bosnia was conquered by Hungary and turned into buffer zone against Ottoman's.

Lika and Slavonia fell to Ottoman's after defeat at Mohacs since Lika was barely defended especially after disastrous battle at Krabava field half a century earlier in which most of Croatian nobility was killed, both provinces were recovered during 1683-1699 war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_union_with_Hungary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krbava_field



You mean poor?



Dalmatia and Zadar needs little fixing, Zadar should get all the islands and coast and Dalmatian should represent hinterland which become Venetian only after 1683-1699 war.



It's kind a hard to have populous provinces when there is a war going on, Slavonia and Lika as well as big part of Hungary were literally wasteland by 1699, Hapsburg empire made huge effort on resettlement of these province, Ottomans did lot of resettlement themselves, Slavonia was almost turned Islamic during there rule because of influxes of Muslims and numerous conversions of local nobles and common folks, many of Muslims then moved to Bosnia with Catholics from Bosnia moving to Slavonia.



Read above, and Croatia never fell although most of it was conquered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_Habsburg_Empire



If we wanted to model culture and religion in the area entire EU2 map wouldn't be enough. :rofl:



Sea zones would nice if they actually worked right now less of them is better since to properly represent Adriatic alone we would need to split it into dozen zones to prevent anyone form having friendly water advantage by taking province or two.



Hum aka Herzegovina should be represent by move of Bosnian capital to Hum. But I would like to see Montenegro as real nation but then I would also need Ragusa for my Napoleon war settings.

I agree with all this, except the question was , Is 16 provinces too many. I lowered it to 12 as my suggestion, removing Zadar (zara) , lika and the other 2.

seems like you would like to keep all 16.

Norre problems and mine , is how do you justify 5 provinces to serbia , while italian and german nations still get one.

Also, the fact remains that a 4 or 5 province of serbia, could hold 8 to 10 before an OE invasion happens.

And i state again, I never see the game as if a human was to represent a nation, as i would expect that a human manned Serbia would like to rule all of europe.

 

[Toio]

Istria Italian when??? Istro-Romanian maybe, but I seriously doubt Italians were ever largest nation, Croats settlement to Istria started parallel with rest of Croatia and only increased during Ottoman wars together with Serbs and Vlachs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria

This article states that there were close to 40% of istria was italians in 1910. !!!
How many migrated away to italy after the fall of Venice in 1797.

I know of 55000 were moved to Veneto (asigo, asolo) by the Austrian goverment in 1820 due to the fact that these were fanatical venetians who were deemed to cause revolts. In fact these same people caused the 1846 , 2 year revolt to free venice from Austrian rule.

 

[almoravid]

Also, the fact remains that a 4 or 5 province of serbia, could hold 8 to 10 before an OE invasion happens.

And i state again, I never see the game as if a human was to represent a nation, as i would expect that a human manned Serbia would like to rule all of europe.

Nations with several provinces can still be made very weak, just look at Novgorod. We can tweak Serbia to be as strong as Bosnia or Wallachia, and weaker then Hungary. Add to that fact that both Bosnia and Wallachia start as Ottoman allies, and you'll see that it will be very hard to grow as Serbia without getting stomped by the Ottomans.

 

[Toio]

I don't understand this. So just because we cannot have your ideal situation we better ruin this aspect of the game totally? sorry, I really don't share your view.

I cannot see more than 2 sea zones working correctly in the adriatic.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Nations with several provinces can still be made very weak, just look at Novgorod. We can tweak Serbia to be as strong as Bosnia or Wallachia, and weaker then Hungary. Add to that fact that both Bosnia and Wallachia start as Ottoman allies, and you'll see that it will be very hard to grow as Serbia without getting stomped by the Ottomans.

Yes, that's true. But Novgorod is almost the size of all this region in itself, so that's not a reason to overrepresented this region. If we are not assigning provinces based on economy, strategy, population and historcal reasons it's just arbitrary. Comparison with other regions is very important.

 

[Toio]

Nations with several provinces can still be made very weak, just look at Novgorod. We can tweak Serbia to be as strong as Bosnia or Wallachia, and weaker then Hungary. Add to that fact that both Bosnia and Wallachia start as Ottoman allies, and you'll see that it will be very hard to grow as Serbia without getting stomped by the Ottomans.

Since i know that you use the new map, how about some views on what the area in question would look like by 1450??

place a map here for all to see, its the best way of representing your views.

can you do this for me , please.?

 

[Toio]

I guess he rather was commenting on national/cultural makeup of Istria.

No , he was having his as i call it "slavic tunnel vision" views.

I have 3 slavic friends, a serbian , croation and a Montengrian (moslem in fact) who have the same tunnel vision views and do not accept anything unfavourable to their respective cultures.

Maybe its the views they brought with them when they migrated to Australia.

 

[almoravid]

Yes, that's true. But Novgorod is almost the size of all this region in itself, so that's not a reason to overrepresented this region. If we are not assigning provinces based on economy, strategy, population and historcal reasons it's just arbitrary. Comparison with other regions is very important.

While Serbia is certainly poorer then most german states, one can't say that in 1419, it was as dirt-poor as it was in 19th/20th centuries. One would need some figures on their manpower. Keep in mind, 1419 is no more then 50 years after Dusan's empire collapsed.

 

[Pellucid]

Problem is that all Paradox game sucks when it come to representing tribal society which Montenegro was all the way to World War 1, province is dirt poor but almost every male is carrying a rifle which gives it relatively huge manpower with high morale but poor discipline.

Also there was almost no roads except mountain tracks so normal army would have big supply problems.

I think all could be represented:

Dirt poor: Low province taxvalue.
Huge manpower: High province manpower.
High morale but poor discipline: Quality all the way down to -1 fire value, max free subjects, max land, average offensive/defensive.
Supply problems: Give the province a low supply limit, preferably one lower than is needed to actually take the fort.

 

[Pellucid]

Norre problems and mine , is how do you justify 5 provinces to serbia , while italian and german nations still get one.

Because Italian and German states would be incredibly easy to take in real life with one or two sieges (although it should be suitably difficult to siege them to begin with). The Balkans would be significantly more difficult to gain all of the regional terrain. Ultimately, all that provinces are necessary for is:
1. To make a region more difficult to take by requiring more sieges.
2. To accurately represent "core provinces" and national culture.
3. To represent important natural boundaries.

Given that German minors are tiny and therefore would be easy to take after a successful campaign (once again stressing that it is the successful campaign that should be the hard part), have almost no cores on each other, and most of Germany's natural boundaries are the actual boundaries of Germany, they don't need a lot of provinces.