MyMap: Yogoslavia's 16 provinces

[Toio]

Wouldn't a simple solution be just having Venice's events push it a bit more towards naval? It's not like that would be completely ahistorical, either....

You fail to see what I am talking about ( only Jinnai understands). the issue is revenue, with the proposed slavic land setups, the most likely scenario will be that Serbia will start attacking minor slavic nations and within no time could have up to 8 provinces. In the meantime an attack on cattaro is entirely possible especially if a core exists.
So, back to Ven. When cattaro is attacked by Serbia , how is Venice going to raise the Troops to defend cattaro ( with ships ?) . They need money to defend cattaro.
The venetian income has already been steadily depleted from Vanillla to AGCEEP,

This has come about due to :
1. loss of manpower due to NO slavic culture.
2. As stated above, no provincial attachment with the capital as it is now.
3. extra cots within europe. especially the Austrian one.

The issue of the OE taking cattaro is not a problem, the issue is the manpower and revenue of Serbia in taking all the slavic states.

You need to release that Venice is not a visitor in these slavic issues, but basically a "slavic" nation trying to survive in its slavic lands.

Has these issues been tested in the new map??
Will giving Slavic culture back to Venice help,? do not think so.
removal of all cores on venetian slavic lands (except the OE) help, ? do not think so as the AI sees hitlist as a greater importance.

You tell me how Venice can maintain their revenue from AGCEEP and the new map game.

i am talking about 20 to 30 % less revenue per year. and not 10 ducats a year.

 

[Hallsten]

You tell me how Venice can maintain their revenue from AGCEEP and the new map game.

Were the provinces in question all that valuable anyway? As I've understood it Venice got the vast majority of its income from trade, so why not just up the value of the Venetian capitol province to model just this and make sure that Venice stays on top economically?

 

[Mad King James]

Don't be ridiculous. Venice shouldn't even start out owning Cattaro, or Kotor, they captured it in 1420, along with Dalmatia.

Venice had neither the loyalty nor the support of the various and sundry occupied peoples, ie Albanians, Greeks, Montenegrins and Dalmatians who lived within the coastal territory. Venice dominated the area because this suited their desires for naval and economic dominance in the Adriatic and for strategic bases in which to fight naval battles against their economic opponents.

The overwhelming majority of Venice's income, both in game and in real life, is production and trade incomes from their many overseas posessions and trade ventures throughout Europe, the Mediterranean and beyond. Venice collected very little in the way of taxes, and most of those were collected from Venice itself, and their mainland Italian posessions.

The equation of Venice to being a 'slavic state' is amongst the most ridiculous and reaching comments I have ever had the misfortune to read. Venice was widely regarded as a usurping foreigner by virtually everyone in the Balkans, and only Venice's massive navy and deep pockets (and the subsequent mercenary armies hired by said deep pockets) kept them from reconquering their varied territories, though not for lack of trying.

 

[Toio]

Don't be ridiculous. Venice shouldn't even start out owning Cattaro, or Kotor, they captured it in 1420, along with Dalmatia.

You are making an issue of ownership for 1 year !!!!out of a total of 400. Have we gone down to this degree??

Venice had neither the loyalty nor the support of the various and sundry occupied peoples, ie Albanians, Greeks, Montenegrins and Dalmatians who lived within the coastal territory. Venice dominated the area because this suited their desires for naval and economic dominance in the Adriatic and for strategic bases in which to fight naval battles against their economic opponents.

Considering that the bulk of their armies comprised of Albanians, Greeks, Dalmatians, Cretans and the rest, I do not see what or why you are referring to this rediculous comment. Do you think that Venice had 200000 veneto men to supply/ garrison all their holdings. At lepanto , out of 110 venetian ships 11 were fully manned by dalamatians, 18 by cretans, 2 by corfu etc. And i am talking about FULLY manned which includes troops and religious people if needed ie orthodox.
This was 1570,

The overwhelming majority of Venice's income, both in game and in real life, is production and trade incomes from their many overseas posessions and trade ventures throughout Europe, the Mediterranean and beyond. Venice collected very little in the way of taxes, and most of those were collected from Venice itself, and their mainland Italian posessions

Agree, but we do not have the luxury of implementing this in EU2. We give fish as income to Veneto, really great revenue intake!!

The equation of Venice to being a 'slavic state' is amongst the most ridiculous and reaching comments I have ever had the misfortune to read. Venice was widely regarded as a usurping foreigner by virtually everyone in the Balkans, and only Venice's massive navy and deep pockets (and the subsequent mercenary armies hired by said deep pockets) kept them from reconquering their varied territories, though not for lack of trying

Venice was in some slavic lands way before the slavs arrived in 700AD.Actually up to 200 years before.
Who is the foreigner? the slavs that migrated from southern Poland.!!

To clarify what I am saying, Venice had such a long history and possetions in slavic lands, that the issue of setting up this new map, you will need to consider that Venice is part of the mix and not an addon.

 

[doktarr]

Wouldn't a simple solution be just having Venice's events push it a bit more towards naval? It's not like that would be completely ahistorical, either....

Why do we even need such events? Just have them start naval. There aren't any random events that push toward land, are there?

 

[Mad King James]

You are making an issue of ownership for 1 year !!!!out of a total of 400. Have we gone down to this degree??

It's hardly a minor point. You stated that Venice deserves to glean full benefit from owning Cattaro, as though it were Istria or Veneto. I was merely pointing out the fact that Venice will literally JUST BE CONQUERING the area when the game begins.

Considering that the bulk of their armies comprised of Albanians, Greeks, Dalmatians, Cretans and the rest, I do not see what or why you are referring to this rediculous comment. Do you think that Venice had 200000 veneto men to supply/ garrison all their holdings. At lepanto , out of 110 venetian ships 11 were fully manned by dalamatians, 18 by cretans, 2 by corfu etc. And i am talking about FULLY manned which includes troops and religious people if needed ie orthodox.
This was 1570,

The mercenary forces Venice deployed in battle, as well as their powerhouse of an economy is ALREADY REPRESENTED by the high manpower and tax value of Venezia. The actual land that Venice was on was not terribly rich, and supported absolutely no rural population.

Agree, but we do not have the luxury of implementing this in EU2. We give fish as income to Veneto, really great revenue intake!!

As I have already disproved this particular fallacy, I will simply point towards my previous arguments.

Venice was in some slavic lands way before the slavs arrived in 700AD.Actually up to 200 years before.
Who is the foreigner? the slavs that migrated from southern Poland.!!

Oh really? Istria is mostly Italian, so that doesn't even count, and Durazzo is Albanian, who are certainly not Slavic. Dalmatia wasn't even fully conquered until 1420. The Venetians barely even saw their slavic subjects, who lived in the countryside, as Venice couldn't care less about them anyways.

To clarify what I am saying, Venice had such a long history and possetions in slavic lands, that the issue of setting up this new map, you will need to consider that Venice is part of the mix and not an addon.

So what? A lot of countries owned territories for centuries without ever gaining any legitimacy, especially if they have no intention of ever even doing so.

 

[Toio]

It's hardly a minor point. You stated that Venice deserves to glean full benefit from owning Cattaro, as though it were Istria or Veneto. I was merely pointing out the fact that Venice will literally JUST BE CONQUERING the area when the game begins

No I said, how will Venice recoup the loss of revenue that they have present in AGCEEP

Besides , you recently stated, get rid of cattaro and make it all montenegro and let VEN have it.

Which is it

Oh really? Istria is mostly Italian, so that doesn't even count, and Durazzo is Albanian, who are certainly not Slavic. Dalmatia wasn't even fully conquered until 1420. The Venetians barely even saw their slavic subjects, who lived in the countryside, as Venice couldn't care less about them anyways.

Yes , istria is mostly Italian , as was Italian until 1975, but is it Italian in EU2??
I cannot remember as I have not played venice for 6 months.

Well, Only tests will prove either one of us right.

 

[Toio]

The actual land that Venice was on was not terribly rich, and supported absolutely no rural population.

.

This is why venice went into veneto for grain, drinking water, population, defensive measures and the ability to trade with their german neighbours.
Also since veneto has no legal access to the sea (as Venice controls the full coast), in EU2 times and the present, I cannot see how it was made fish.

 

[Pellucid]

I don't think any decision has been reached on whether to model Montenegro or not.

Yeah, that was my 2 cents. I didn't say "I don't understand why you guys chose to ignore Montenegro," I said "I don't see why you would."

 

[Svantevid]

Both Veneto and Istria had quite a proportion of slovene inhabitants. A documentary I once saw stated that surnames of quite a number of doges show their slovenian and especially croat origins.

But I'm not saying Venice in the game should have slavonic culture. I'm ignorant of the reasons it was suppressed.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Aren't we drifting away from the subject of this thread? Is this really interesting when creating a new map and deciding on provinces?

 

[Herr Doctor]

Yeah, it's not as though they were important... oh wait they were.

Answer me this: Where were all those explorers, even the ones who ran into America accidentally, trying to GET to?!

You are right. It would be great to see Lesser Antilles, several Indian ports and “Spice islands” of Indonesia represented detailed in the map HC is making… I could imagine colonial aspect of the game without them.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Aren't we drifting away from the subject of this thread? Is this really interesting when creating a new map and deciding on provinces?

Every map discussion is going far away from the start subjects.

 

[Kelvin]

Yes , istria is mostly Italian , as was Italian until 1975,

in what universe do you live?

but is it Italian in EU2??

it used to be italian in vanilla, but AGCEEP changed it to slavonic, as it should be, as the majority of population was and still is slavonic (mostly Croatian, partly Slovenian) throughout the EU2 period

 

[Sute]{h]

Aren't we drifting away from the subject of this thread? Is this really interesting when creating a new map and deciding on provinces?

Well we have to decide if we want to model Montenegro.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

I just found this stupid thread

So to aid MKJ against these pagan's...

Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia didn't have the historical or economical importance to need as many province as they got. In fact, when they fell to the Ottomans, it happened swiftly, and that's impossible with as many province as given here.

You obliviously have zero knowledge of Ottoman conquest of this region, Serbia was re-conquered several times by Hungary and Ottoman's, central and eastern Bosnia was conquered in 1463 almost without a fight ( "fell with a whisper"), Hum aka Herzegovina resisted until 1482 under local dukes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Province,_Ottoman_Empire

Bihac was Croatian/Hungarian city/fort all the way until 1592! Several attempts were made to recapture Bihac in following century but after 1699 it was become permanent part of Bosnia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihac

Northern part of Bosnia was conquered by Hungary and turned into buffer zone against Ottoman's.

Lika and Slavonia fell to Ottoman's after defeat at Mohacs since Lika was barely defended especially after disastrous battle at Krabava field half a century earlier in which most of Croatian nobility was killed, both provinces were recovered during 1683-1699 war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_union_with_Hungary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krbava_field

Economical: These areas do not need a lot of provinces since they were rich.

You mean poor?

Strategical: What does three provinces in Bosnia give extra (or five for Serbia), except for unhistorical resilience? What does Zadar give that a merge with Dalmatia cannot give?

Dalmatia and Zadar needs little fixing, Zadar should get all the islands and coast and Dalmatian should represent hinterland which become Venetian only after 1683-1699 war.

Demographical: there were not so populous, or had so many important cities to merit all the provinces given.

It's kind a hard to have populous provinces when there is a war going on, Slavonia and Lika as well as big part of Hungary were literally wasteland by 1699, Hapsburg empire made huge effort on resettlement of these province, Ottomans did lot of resettlement themselves, Slavonia was almost turned Islamic during there rule because of influxes of Muslims and numerous conversions of local nobles and common folks, many of Muslims then moved to Bosnia with Catholics from Bosnia moving to Slavonia.

Historical: The historical borders can be modelled, with the same degree of detail as have other European areas, with fewer provinces. The kingdoms fell rapidly to conquerors, that can only happen with few provinces.

Read above, and Croatia never fell although most of it was conquered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_the_Habsburg_Empire

Cultural: All 16 provinces are not needed for modelling the cultures and religions of the area, even if we should divide cultures much more.

If we wanted to model culture and religion in the area entire EU2 map wouldn't be enough. :rofl:

Sea zones are needed. I think those can be found elsewhere.)

Sea zones would nice if they actually worked right now less of them is better since to properly represent Adriatic alone we would need to split it into dozen zones to prevent anyone form having friendly water advantage by taking province or two.

There rywere no such things as Hum or Slavonia states in EUII period IIRC. Montenegro is not really important to have a tag as it did almost nothing significant for histo IMO.

Hum aka Herzegovina should be represent by move of Bosnian capital to Hum. But I would like to see Montenegro as real nation but then I would also need Ragusa for my Napoleon war settings.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Like most of its neighbors, Slavonia was conquered by the Ottoman Empire during the 16th century.

Only problem, Zagreb/Agram never fell to Ottoman's that why map looks like this to make Croatia wall against Ottoman which it historically was!

Center of Slavonia begun moving to Osijek during this period so no point of creating pre EU2 settings.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Well we have to decide if we want to model Montenegro.

Problem is that all Paradox game sucks when it come to representing tribal society which Montenegro was all the way to World War 1, province is dirt poor but almost every male is carrying a rifle which gives it relatively huge manpower with high morale but poor discipline.

Also there was almost no roads except mountain tracks so normal army would have big supply problems.

OTOH impact on history was slim since Ottoman's didn't wasn't to bother and left them alone after several defeats, probably biggest impact on history was during Napoleonic wars when Montenegrin duke took Kotor/Cattoro under his protection and with help of Russian navy turned into pirate base which kept attacking French (and anyone else) ships in Adriatic, also served as base for Russian landing on Adriatic island, finally forcing French to move there troops across Ottoman territory through Ragusa ending republics existence and fighting several battles against joint Russian, Montenegrin and local Kotor militia.

French lost initial battle and were force to retreat to Dubrovnik behind its walls since Russians didn't have siege artillery, this resulted in devastation of surrounding rich Ragusan lands by marauding Montenegrins and Kotor natives, Russian admiral had to save Ragusan civilians by transporting them to surrounding islands in his ships.

Later general Marmont arrived to relive siege of Dubrovnik but he failed in his attempt to capture Kotor since Russian fleet was playing havoc on his supply lines so he took satisfaction of torching anything that wasn't burning yet around Kotor and returned to Dubrovnik and Dalmatia.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Yes , istria is mostly Italian , as was Italian until 1975, but is it Italian in EU2??

Istria Italian when??? Istro-Romanian maybe, but I seriously doubt Italians were ever largest nation, Croats settlement to Istria started parallel with rest of Croatia and only increased during Ottoman wars together with Serbs and Vlachs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Venice had neither the loyalty nor the support of the various and sundry occupied peoples, ie Albanians, Greeks, Montenegrins and Dalmatians who lived within the coastal territory.

Slavic population was relatively loyal during Ottoman wars but this population usually arrived from regions conquered by Ottoman's.

During 1683-1699 war, Slavic population in Venetian Dalmatia started attacking Ottoman Dalmatia after defeat at Vienna on its own and Venice got scared it would provoke open war with Ottomans in the end it did with Venice grabbing entire Dalmatia.