MyMap: Yogoslavia's 16 provinces

[Garbon]

the only look at the putative HC map I've seen has been a shot of India that I would consider markedly inferior to what MyMap has rendered.

You do realize that the India, that I displayed is the province borders that MKJ's latest map had, right?

Or are you trying to make an aesthetic comparision? *mellow*

 

[Garbon]

Perhaps the HC should put forth a convincing argument about why the Balkans should have provinces cut, one that hasn't already been answered. At the moment, the HC hasn't put forth a single convincing argument that hasn't been counted by MKJ or others, except that the map isn't what you want. It doesn't seem to matter if the community want to give it a chance, or if there's more and more reports of the OE not having issues in the Balkans and such.

...

I've seen plenty of good arguments from the community and from MKJ, but a lack of them from the HC, up to this point. It seems to me that the HC had the same opertunity as the rest of the community when it came to their input towards MyMap. So perhaps the HC needs to come up with some arguments that are convincing, or they risk dividing the AGC-EEP community, which would be a shame, but it seems to be where this is heading.

Just because you were not convinced, doesn't mean that valid arguments have not been put forth.

I think its also worthy of note, to see how quick everyone is to forget what occurred when MKJ was making the initial map. Did you all forget how outraged various members of the "community" were when proposals were rejected (i.e. not added as many provinces in Poland as some people would have liked? We aren't really doing anything other than further refining the province breakdown.

 

[Toio]

Further tests of the slavic areas.
GAME TEST #: 6
SCENERIO: GC
MAP: MYMAP
TIMEFRAME: 1419 to 1450
DIFFICULTY LEVEL:
AGGRESSION LEVEL:
RANDOM EVENTS (Y/N)? YES
FANTASY EVENTS (Y/N)? NO
INDEPENDANT WALES (Y/N)? (When appropriate) NO
HUMAN COUNTRY: SWEDEN
ANY MODIFICATIONS TO STANDARD SCENERIO (Y/N)? YES, use my POR AI files, so that I could get POR discovering the world as they historically did. Check the POR AI thread for what I use, should be the last post.

Note, test total equal 6 games.

I now find that these areas perform well with the new Mymap. With the following recommendations I think the area will be better.
I also include problems from its neighbours even though they do not effect the slavic areas in the early phase.

-I recommend that Macva be merged with Rashka and this will give the OE an easier passage to infilltrate the northern areas and so head to vienna.

-No cores should be given to any other slavic nations except what they commenced the GC with, this will prevent any huge slavic AI nation appearing.

- Austria is eliminated in 80% of games by 1450. They barely only survive IF hungary fights the hussites.
I recommend a removal of Salzburg as a nation. Give the territory to Austria and so Austria will commence with 3 territories.
Introduce a new nation and area of GORZ , just north of istria.
This area will be inherited by Austria in 1500. This with the inheritance of Stryia will see an Austria that will resemble itself in a historical manner.

Info on Gorz
Far away from the town, on a knoll at the entrance to the Iseltal, the new residence of the Counts of Gorizia was built in the third quarter of the 13th century: Schloss Bruck. At the zenith of its might the dynasty ruled over vast areas of the Pustertal, Upper Carinthia and Friuli with
property extending as far as Carniola and Istria. One branch of the
dynasty acquired the county of Tyrol and the duchy of Carinthia. The
Gorizians were able to consolidate full sovereign powers in their
territories and they were recognized as rulers, immediately subject to
the Empire.

As the capital and the residence of the Counts of Gorizia, Lienz
experienced all the changing fortunes of history. Leonhard of Gorizia,
the last of the dynasty, died at Schloss Bruck in. 1500. Maximilian I,
King and Emperor, was universal heir to the Gorizians. The territories
in the Pustertal and the domain of Lienz were unified with the County of
Tyrol. Lienz forfeited its central position as the residence.

COA of Gorz
http://www.ngw.nl/int/oos/l/lienz.htm

Make Gorz a vassal of Austria as well as stryia.

I still see TOO many cots, especially in Iceland

I also see the knights as a thorn in the OE side due to the fact that they keep taking salonika very early in GC and thus forces the OE to try to attack the knights too early without relevent amount of ships. this waste of precious resorces early on deprives the OE of advancing historically.

 

[Toio]

If people would fill out something like this it would be so much easier and would then be more of just whether you believed the person or not:

GAME TEST #:
SCENERIO:
MAP:
TIMEFRAME:
DIFFICULTY LEVEL:
AGGRESSION LEVEL:
RANDOM EVENTS (Y/N)?
FANTASY EVENTS (Y/N)?
INDEPENDANT WALES (Y/N)? (When appropriate)
HUMAN COUNTRY:
ANY MODIFICATIONS TO STANDARD SCENERIO (Y/N)?
IF SO, WHAT?

I can understand these set of questions

WHAT, IF ANY, NON HISTORIC EVENT CHOICES DID THE AI (FOR THE REGION) TAKE?



WHAT, IF YOU WERE A REGIONAL COUNTRY, NON HISTORIC EVENT CHOICES DID YOU TAKE?



WHAT, IF ANY, UNUSUAL NON-EVENT CIRCUMSTANCES OCCURED?



IF YOU WERE A REGIONAL COUNTRY, DID YOU DO ANY UNHISTORICAL (OUTSIDE OF EVENT CHOICES)?



WHAT OTHER NON-REGIONAL FACTORS MAY HAVE PLAYED A ROLE?



BREIF DESCRIPTION:

Why ask these questions if you support a fantasy GERMANY or fantasy ITALY appearing.??

these are silly questions unless you can prevent unhistorical things happening anywhere in the world.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Up until just now your main argument against the number of provinces in the Balkans was that it "wouldn't work for gameplay" that is, it would hamper Ottoman performance. When people come back and tell you that, no, it works just fine, you can't call their argument stupid without tarring yourself with the same brush.

You obiously haven't read my posts in this thread. That has NOT been my main argument.

I have come to the point of believing that a partition of the modding community would be good. All the effort spent argumenting here could be used for creating two working scenarios instead.

 

[Pellucid]

You obiously haven't read my posts in this thread. That has NOT been my main argument.

I have come to the point of believing that a partition of the modding community would be good. All the effort spent argumenting here could be used for creating two working scenarios instead.

That's the first thing that you've ever said that I've agreed with, I think.

 

[Svantevid]

I think that it would be good to have provinces of about the same size (in Europe one size, rest of the world another), with as few exceptions as possible. It would look odd if some areas would be more fragmanted then the others, no matter the historical reasons.

As for Goertz, I'd sooner split Carinthia and Carniola and give a portion of Goertz to each one. They were more important and bigger lands than Goertz, I'd say. Furthermore, I think representing Goertz on the map would be very awkward, because of its shape (and the fact it consisted of two 'chunks').

 

[Pellucid]

GAME TEST #: 1
SCENERIO: AGC-EEP MyMAP Grand Campaign
MAP: MyMAP
TIMEFRAME: 1419 to approx 1500
DIFFICULTY LEVEL: Medium
AGGRESSION LEVEL: Weakling
RANDOM EVENTS (Y/N)? Y
FANTASY EVENTS (Y/N)? Y
INDEPENDANT WALES (Y/N)? N


HUMAN COUNTRY: Byzantium
ANY MODIFICATIONS TO STANDARD SCENERIO (Y/N)? Yes.
IF SO, WHAT? Changed Byzantine initial cores to make more sense with MyMAP; essentially, added the other Morean province, all Greek provinces, and a few Bulgarian and Turkish provinces as cores, but did not change actual ownership of the provinces.


WHAT, IF YOU WERE A REGIONAL COUNTRY, NON HISTORIC EVENT CHOICES DID YOU TAKE? Accepted Union of the Churches, did not form either of the two military units Byzantium is given the option to form, purchased the artillery in the cannon event, and had the reclamation of trade fantasy event.



WHAT, IF ANY, UNUSUAL NON-EVENT CIRCUMSTANCES OCCURED? Gelderland became bizarrely large, approx 7-8 provinces.



IF YOU WERE A REGIONAL COUNTRY, DID YOU DO ANY UNHISTORICAL (OUTSIDE OF EVENT CHOICES)? I entered the Ottoman Empire's alliance in the early game and maintained good relations with them for as long as possible. I also annexed Athens (technically not unhistorical, but the fact that the Ottomans didn't immediately crush me was unhistorical), took most of Ghazi (2 provinces), retook Lesbos and both of Genoa's northern black sea penninsulas. Eventually, I defeated the OE in a major war and took most of their holdings in Europe.



WHAT OTHER NON-REGIONAL FACTORS MAY HAVE PLAYED A ROLE? Ak Koyunlu attacked the Ottoman Empire, which is the only thing that allowed me to win against the Ottomans in the war in which I took provinces.



BREIF DESCRIPTION: The reason I'm posting this is because I think it might be valuable (albeit less so) to see what happens with the Empire when a human player directly interferes with it. The OE still crushed all of Serbia, dividing it up between itself and Albania. Wallachia and the OE took a total of 3 provinces from Hungary, 2 to Wallachia and 1 to OE. Bosnia took a few provinces from Venice. Despite my constant meddling, the OE still managed to take most of the balkans. Furthermore, I found it to be far more difficult for me to set up a situation in which I could win a decisive war against the Ottomans and take back Greece. The Ottoman Army regularly numbered about 80,000+; easily double what it is capable of on the normal map. The only reason I had any chance at all is because when Ak Koyunlu attacked, the Ottoman Empire moved all of their troops into Turkey, at which point I blocked the straits with my superior navy and attacked them.

All testing seems to show that the OE is alive and kicking and, in fact, seems to BENEFIT from all of the additional provinces it ends up taking from the balkan minors.

 

[Pellucid]

I think that it would be good to have provinces of about the same size (in Europe one size, rest of the world another), with as few exceptions as possible. It would look odd if some areas would be more fragmanted then the others, no matter the historical reasons.

That doesn't make any sense. That's not the way it is even in normal EU2; provinces should be divided up according to natural boundaries, historical significance, and gameplay balance. Nothing else should be considered.

 

[Svantevid]

In the game I'm playing on vanilla map, (started as Styria, but later turned into Austria), OE is quite capable of fielding more than 80000. I was only lately able to wrestle chunks of Hungary from them.

 

[Pellucid]

But it would, but in more regional ways, with the exception of Japan. Japan's success at closing its ports (offically) was also noticed by its neighbors.

Also if it had gone Catholic Japan's effect would have been vastly different and its impact cannot really be measured completely, just like if it had embraced technology as it later did. Atleast we can for the later have future referances during the Meiji Restoration to see what could happen with a Japan that looked outward.

Yeah, and if the Byzantine Empire had suddenly gotten in ships, sailed to Norway, and conquered it, then the impact of such an event couldn't really be measured completely...but that didn't happen, either, and so we shouldn't waste tags on it.

 

[Svantevid]

That doesn't make any sense. That's not the way it is even in normal EU2; provinces should be divided up according to natural boundaries, historical significance, and gameplay balance. Nothing else should be considered.

It is my impression that's exactly the way that vanilla EUII was made.

 

[Norrefeldt]

That's the first thing that you've ever said that I've agreed with, I think.

Oh, impressive.
You are the first one to have read all my 5500+ posts! Must have been a real headache without the search option.

 

[Pellucid]

Well lets see. I want you to play Japan, either AGCEEP or vanilla. You're pick and tell me when you start to get frustrated and when it stops getting fun.

Do you want to know why there were never any AARs for Japan after the Onin war, if then consider Japan would likely be a more played Asian nation? Well because Massive RR in a pitiful attempt to represent a complete collapse of central government where it was every daimyo for himself. Imagine, if you can, what HRE would have been like if the central authroity had collapsed without something to take its place and tell me how you'd model that in a fun and historic way with 1 tag.

I think you should re-read the box the game came in. I'm pretty sure you misread it as Japan Universalis. If you want to make an amazing map and modification to EU2 that's all about Japan, I'm all for it. Heck, I'd probably play it...but just because you want to play a fun game as Japan doesn't mean that everyone who wants to play a fun game as the Ottoman Empire, Austria, Venice, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Wallachia, Byzantium, Moldova, and Hungary should suffer.

EDIT: Oh, not to mention everyone who wants to play a fun game anywhere near any of those nations, allied with any of those nations, or otherwise heavily involving any of those nations.

 

[Pellucid]

It is my impression that's exactly the way that vanilla EUII was made.

Have another look at the EU2 map then. Compare the size of Picardie or Caux to the size of Azerbaijan. I rest my case.

 

[niceta]

I think you should re-read the box the game came in. I'm pretty sure you misread it as Japan Universalis. If you want to make an amazing map and modification to EU2 that's all about Japan, I'm all for it. Heck, I'd probably play it...but just because you want to play a fun game as Japan doesn't mean that everyone who wants to play a fun game as the Ottoman Empire, Austria, Venice, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Wallachia, Byzantium, Moldova, and Hungary should suffer.

I agree
Japan had a fully history but... as game is surely a failure. i think.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I think you also misread AGCEEP representation. Its not lets make europe as detailed as possible and screw the rest of the word over again if it doesn't suit our little ideas. Lets put it this way, you'd really have to be an extreme sadist to like playing Japan now because RR is the only too for monolith coutnries there is and that's what its like. Play it and tell me otherwise.

Based on posts here and elsewhere you're just wanting Europe to be overrepresented and these other places to be backwater monolithic entiries not worth playing. That isn't AGCEEP. That's why this is called a mod, not the actual game. Get over it. There are mods out there already that focus on europe. Go play them.

 

[niceta]

live in japan

I think you also misread AGCEEP representation. Its not lets make europe as detailed as possible and screw the rest of the word over again if it doesn't suit our little ideas. Lets put it this way, you'd really have to be an extreme sadist to like playing Japan now because RR is the only too for monolith coutnries there is and that's what its like. Play it and tell me otherwise.

not "screw"... just give less importance.
Japan wasn't involved in the world history for almost 2000 years: to me it's ahistorical give a different role in the game

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Anyways those descriptions are what i am looking for. And Toio:

Agression espeically for the AI is important and those areas below, are meant for breaking up what people might otherwise make as just very undetailed responses which leave people asking "and what about...?"

 

[unmerged(2456)]

not "screw"... just give less importance.
Japan wasn't involved in the world history for almost 2000 years: to me it's ahistorical give a different role in the game

See that's fundimentally not a part of AGCEEP. There are other mods out there if that's what you want. Some of them I'm sure could use help, but especially Asia should not take a backseat to Europe as far as importance. Yes Asia should be attacked and parts conquered by Europe, but that's not the same.