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Eldin

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Backing up strong words do, too. I don't particularly recall China being put on the path of devastation the 19thcentury had in store for it, but if you can show me evidence for that...

In fact, for all of the time period, China should probably be richer than all of Europe, but this is based on what people tell me... so this is likely to be wrong :p
 

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Eldin said:
Backing up strong words do, too. I don't particularly recall China being put on the path of devastation the 19thcentury had in store for it, but if you can show me evidence for that...

In fact, for all of the time period, China should probably be richer than all of Europe, but this is based on what people tell me... so this is likely to be wrong :p
Well they probably aren't wrong until maybe we get into very end, but China should have a larger maintance cost as well.
 

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Sun_Zi_36 said:
. what is more this is a game ultimately with a european focus, designed by europeans from a european perspective, with mostly european players, and a game engine that has many european historical assumptions. Asia can never be simulated on the level of accuracy as europe is simulated in the game.
Now i remember why ask about AGCEEP chapter Asia :p . AGCEEP mod with equal threadment for rest of the world. be honest nation that influence the word meaning influence the europe right. japan influence up to thailand in SE Asia. But too sad SE asia was not count for the world . So now time to reduce Japan provinces :D couse i drawing that area and requested to MKJ with asia perspective. Just blame me for that :eek:o
 

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China's decline had not set in by the 18th century. The Opium War takes place in 1840, two decades after the EU period. With the exception of Macao, no treaty ports or spheres of influence were ceded to foreign powers until after the Opium War. In fact, China was actively expanding into Tibet, Xinjiang and what is now modern Kazakhstan in the 18th century.
 

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Pellucid said:
Errr...the opium trade much? Spheres of influence much? The Boxer Rebellion much? Sure, the actual Boxer Rebellion doesn't occur during the timespan of the game, but some of the important events leading up to it sure do.
then tell me about the important events that occurred during the game period.

Shadowstrike said:
China's decline had not set in by the 18th century. The Opium War takes place in 1840, two decades after the EU period. With the exception of Macao, no treaty ports or spheres of influence were ceded to foreign powers until after the Opium War. In fact, China was actively expanding into Tibet, Xinjiang and what is now modern Kazakhstan in the 18th century.
actually macao was not a treaty port during the game period at all. it was just a very tiny coastal enclave that china decided to concentrate foreign traders at, to make westerners satisfied of their thirst for chinese goods and receive as much government revenue in the form of customs as possible, to avoid what would otherwise be unregulated trade (no revenue) and occassional coastal harrassments. it switched to a treaty port after the game period. there was a thread before about making macao a province in the new map with idontlikeforms, who despite suggesting macao should be a province, admitted that macao's existence depended upon permission from china, as china could simply cut off water and food supplies to macao to kill off the settlers if it really didnt want it to exist. Anyway, enough OT discussion.
 
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jinnai, I have reread one of your posts and have the following queries
Jinnai said:
Otomo/Shimazu battled it out in Kyushu. Actually it wasn't them two intially but those are the two who became the end-game powerhouses. Had they united Kyushu, they could well have swept through and united western Japan. Also Shimazu were the clan to embrace Catholism the most.

Also Shimazu was even more important post-Sengoku Jidai than during it
which one is the more powerful here? Shimazu? could this be abstracted as Otomo's possessions being split between Shimazu and another power such as Mori/Ouichi? Not satisfactory, but many places are also being abstracted (e.g. there are at least 20 manchu city states that can be included in the game if we are not limited bylack of game engine resources and consistency across regions outside europe) and the game is far from detail.
Jinnai said:
Amako/Mori/Ouichi It was Mori who united the land and if Mori Moratomi hadn't died in an accident less than a year before the western invasion of Japan by Oda, Japan's history most certainly wouldn't have been the same.

However Mori clan starts out as a vassal switiching sides littlely by the month with Amako and Ouichi to get the best deal. Ultimately they side with Ouichi, but this is well into the war. Without Amako, this element would be lost entirely and there is no real way to compensate.
how do you intend to represent switching sides little by the month under the game engine we have? i think having amako in the game will not achieve this effect.
Jinnai said:
Post-Sengoku Jidai:
Hideyoshi They were the ones that really pushed for the outward invasions. Had they conquered Japan, Expansionsit Japan would not be so far-fetched.
were they a significant force?
Jinnai said:
Others:
Miyoshi Had some impact in the Onin Wars, but mostly pre-onin wars. They Also could have tried to conquer Shigoku and done so, but they wanted the more developed land of the mainland. Also not having them in is giving Chosokabe too much power.
Chosokabe perhaps could be compensated also by some kind of abstraction. perhaps split what Miyosshi has between Chosokabe and Oda?
Jinnai said:
Uesugi They were intially the threat to Hojo before they were defeated early on. They are also the only clan during this entire period to reform itself and revolt (though perhpas some others might have). This was a real shock. Once they reformed, they were a regional threat to Date, Asakura, Hojo and eventually Tokugowa and Oda, but not a major player.
you mentioned previously that Date was relatively weak and limited by resources in northern japan. so after uesugi reformed, they still failed to defeat Date? was their reform that significat then? could that be represented as revolts in the game?
 

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Sun Zi: It is clear you know little of the Sengoku Jidai period :p

Otomo are initially more powerful, but Shimazu end on top (and how!).

I do agree with you on the Mori/Amako/Ouichi situation.

Toyotomi (not Hideyoshi, blast you Jinnai :mad: ) are QUITE the force, having factually unified Japan for a few years before it was taken over by the Tokugawa. But my suggestion was to use Nippon and other tags to model this.

As for the Uesugi... go google Uesugi Kenshin :p. I'd rather they occupy the whole north and do not disappear in the beginning like historically than they have to revolt out of the Date or the Takeda clans, really. Uesugi are important.
 

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Sun_Zi:
I've dropped Amako, however, if i had kept them, Mori would have been a vassal of Amako and Ouichi at the same time. This is technically possible in the setup and their are weirder things done at setup.

I may be able to drop Miyoshi, however i think they are somewhat needed as they were an ally for Hosokawa during the Onin War and Yamana has an ally in that can't be abstracted, Ouichi.

I still prefer Uesagi to either revolt or be pushed back. Its true he didn't actually "revolt" in the traditional EU2 sense, but its the closest abstraction we can give without a very heavy handed scripting which i don't like. Date is also the major player in the area, moreso than Uesagi in the north. Uesagi is more southernly located even than Date and he ignored the north whereas Date didn't.

Part of the Sengoku Jidai is about the unlikely victors in the end. This wasn't always the case but if you look at who was stong at the beginning and who was strong at the end, it becomes clear that with the exception of Date, Uesagi and Hojo, that isn't the case (and Hojo was actually weaker overall despite its additional lands).
 
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Garbon said:
If you had to do a paired down sequence to a bare bones minimum, what would that look like? That'll be helpful in the HC decision in how to find a middle ground between oversimplification and too much detail.
Somehow I think that his bare bones minimum won't look a lot different than the full version. :D
 

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Actually we could just do it like it is now and then have no one ever want to play Japan because 1/3 the game is RR.

Miyoshi can be dropped, If worse comes to worse, Oda/Tokugowa can be combined into Tokugowa and make Oda Nobunaga the starting monarch (not having him isn't acceptable). I could drop Imagawa if there is a better way to devide the middle of Japan without losing a lot of provinces there.

Beyond that for tags and its starting to tread into dangerous waters as far as distortions and heavy-handed use of events. Each one that's left is either one that is needed for the Onin war or became a power during the Sengoku Jedai, except Uesgai, Hojo and Date. Although i guess I might be able to squeeze out Otomo, but that would put Shimazu ahistorically powerful plus the only one with a CoT (as of now).
 

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Jinnai said:
Actually we could just do it like it is now and then have no one ever want to play Japan because 1/3 the game is RR.

Miyoshi can be dropped, If worse comes to worse, Oda/Tokugowa can be combined into Tokugowa and make Oda Nobunaga the starting monarch (not having him isn't acceptable). I could drop Imagawa if there is a better way to devide the middle of Japan without losing a lot of provinces there.

Beyond that for tags and its starting to tread into dangerous waters as far as distortions and heavy-handed use of events. Each one that's left is either one that is needed for the Onin war or became a power during the Sengoku Jedai, except Uesgai, Hojo and Date. Although i guess I might be able to squeeze out Otomo, but that would put Shimazu ahistorically powerful plus the only one with a CoT (as of now).

I think you have done an excellent job given the complexity of the situation in Japan. I would favor keeping Imagawa in, as they were a fairly important (at least before the Battle of Okehazama). Perhaps Miyoshi can go and I wouldn't mind the Oda/Tokugawa merge so much, as Tokugawa pretty much picked up the torch from Nobunaga anyway, if deemed necessary to cut down the list.
 

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Glokplopit said:
I think you have done an excellent job given the complexity of the situation in Japan. I would favor keeping Imagawa in, as they were a fairly important (at least before the Battle of Okehazama). Perhaps Miyoshi can go and I wouldn't mind the Oda/Tokugawa merge so much, as Tokugawa pretty much picked up the torch from Nobunaga anyway, if deemed necessary to cut down the list.
Well Miyoshi is the only ally I can see to give Hosokawa for the Onin War. Yamana gets Ouichi and its Hosokowa who is suppose to win the war, with Ouich actually winning a the war for who will succeed the throne, ie that Yoshimasa actually names who will finally. That's all he wanted, was Yoshimasa to name his legitimate heir, he didn't care which of them it was really, he just wanted to end the turmoil.
 

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Jinnai said:
Well Miyoshi is the only ally I can see to give Hosokawa for the Onin War. Yamana gets Ouichi and its Hosokowa who is suppose to win the war, with Ouich actually winning a the war for who will succeed the throne, ie that Yoshimasa actually names who will finally. That's all he wanted, was Yoshimasa to name his legitimate heir, he didn't care which of them it was really, he just wanted to end the turmoil.

I agree with you. I would rather not lump them all together, but if need be, perhaps Hosokawa and Miyoshi can be lumped together, although the Ōuchi should definately remain distinct, as they stayed important till their downfall on at Miyajima (in their activities in the Ōnin War as well as their foreign trade and relations, such as housing Francis Xavier for a time).

What about allying the Hosokawa with the Ashikaga, as the Yamana were dubbed the "rebels" of the war and the Hosokawa eventually make the Ashikaga their puppets? Or perhaps the Yamana can have events for stability and other losses due to lower moral, etc. to further help the combined Hosokawa/Miyoshi eventually win out.

Then there can be events to represent the strange switching of Yoshimi to the Yamana, the deaths of Hosokawa and Yamana in the same year, and the continuing of the war by Ōuchi. Then later the Hosokawa/Ōuchi conflict with Ōuchi Yoshioki restoring the Shogun to Yoshitane.
 

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Glokplopit said:
I agree with you. I would rather not lump them all together, but if need be, perhaps Hosokawa and Miyoshi can be lumped together, although the Ōuchi should definately remain distinct, as they stayed important till their downfall on at Miyajima (in their activities in the Ōnin War as well as their foreign trade and relations, such as housing Francis Xavier for a time).

What about allying the Hosokawa with the Ashikaga, as the Yamana were dubbed the "rebels" of the war and the Hosokawa eventually make the Ashikaga their puppets? Or perhaps the Yamana can have events for stability and other losses due to lower moral, etc. to further help the combined Hosokawa/Miyoshi eventually win out.

Then there can be events to represent the strange switching of Yoshimi to the Yamana, the deaths of Hosokawa and Yamana in the same year, and the continuing of the war by Ōuchi. Then later the Hosokawa/Ōuchi conflict with Ōuchi Yoshioki restoring the Shogun to Yoshitane.
Allying I don't want to do because its very hard force a beaking of an alliance as the breakalliance command doesn't work. Plus you have the Ashikaga becoming more powerful which shouldn't happen either.
 

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Pellucid said:
Unless you're planning on severely deviating from history, this project is a complete waste of tags and time. You're going to waste HOW many tags on a 20-year period? This is insanity; severely reducing the number of tags available to the rest of the world for 20-years of "fun" as Japan; 20 years that NOT putting in the game would have the exact same effect on the rest of the EU world.

c/s