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unmerged(2456)

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FAL said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war

The Thirty Years' War was a conflict fought between the years 1618 and 1648, principally on the territory of todays Germany, but also involving most of the major continental powers. My emphasis.

Update your HRE knowledge. You really are out of your league with suggesting Japan had a similiar impact on the world.
I admit my knowledge on wars solely in europe,especially central and northern europe, at this time is not the best, but you should update your knowledge on pre-Meiji Japan because you are really about the only one who can't see the parrallels between the two. Again I never said its a perfect 1:1 match. Nothing is.
FAL said:
The HRE was not only the area where Protestantism was founded, but also the area where bitter wars of religion were fought.
But, more importantly, this was not just a war in the HRE by HRE minors, but a war where major nations outside the HRE got involved as well.
Sweden, France, Austria, Spain etc. all fought bitterly in the HRE. And that's only 30 years we're talking about now.

Japan had none of that in it's entire eu2 existance.
No it didn't have a religious war, but you sir really do need to brush up on your hiostory of Japan. numerous time it has been said Japan had been involved in wars outside itself during this period, in this very thread, yet you can't seem to get that into your head. Wars including China which itself is enough to consider all of Europe combined pretty much.
FAL said:
Isn't that a disputed viewpoint?
Not really. No more so than anything else.
FAL said:
I am not ignoring you. I am still trying to get convinced why Japan is of similiar importance as the HRE. Or even the Balkan.
When I am, I won't object to so many Japanese tags anymore.
Now yourcomparing it to the balkans which, except for a breif period was almost entirely under ottoman rule?

Yes the balkans played a major role in history, but that would come much later. This era it was just a regional thing. Next you'll be saying Navarra had more impact on world history...

As to the HRE i said it probably wasn't quite on par, but close. The HRE didn't directly change world history and not one indivisual member did anything notable world-wide. The same is true with Japan, just slightly less-so.

Potentially it could have far more, on the scale of Portugal or so in its own way. That didn't happen of course, so don't go saying i'm now saying the actual Japanese history is comprable to Portugal, but potentially it could have been. More than any other state, even perhaps china, its impact really came down to luck as to Oda being the right man who didn't end up dying at the right time.
 

niceta

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ok Japan is potentially comparable to Portugal.
But in this case why not Mameluks (thy have the Holy lan in the terrytory... Egypt...) or other countries?
Japan history is very interesting but IN MY OPINION not intersting as an european Country. Too tags for an island in the pacific ocean
 
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Jinnai said:
I admit my knowledge on wars solely in europe,especially central and northern europe, at this time is not the best, but you should update your knowledge on pre-Meiji Japan because you are really about the only one who can't see the parrallels between the two. Again I never said its a perfect 1:1 match. Nothing is.

At least I gave you sources about the HRE. Be my guest and prove that Japan was so important.

It's not just that Japan isn't a good 1:1 match, Japan is not a good match with the HRE at all. For various reasons, but one of the most outstanding is that in the HRE various major nations fought wars, In Japan this did not happen.

No it didn't have a religious war, but you sir really do need to brush up on your hiostory of Japan. numerous time it has been said Japan had been involved in wars outside itself during this period, in this very thread, yet you can't seem to get that into your head.

I am not disputing the fact that Japan had been involved in wars with a few other countries, but I am disputing this has anything to do with more tags needed for Japan. A Japan invading Korea could be simulated perfectly with only ONE tag, the NIP tag (as is the case in vanilla).
You don't need 15 tags to represent Japanese interaction with the outside world.
While you do need that many tags for the HRE to represent it's interaction with the outside world.

Wars including China which itself is enough to consider all of Europe combined pretty much.

Enough to consider ALL of Europe combined?
I'd like to see some more information about this subject then. My first instinct is to say it's a ridiculous statement though.

Now yourcomparing it to the balkans which, except for a breif period was almost entirely under ottoman rule?

Yes the balkans played a major role in history, but that would come much later. This era it was just a regional thing. Next you'll be saying Navarra had more impact on world history...

I say the Balkan had more impact on world history than Japan indeed. But let's for a matter of simplicity just concentrate ourselves at the HRE in this discussion.

As to the HRE i said it probably wasn't quite on par, but close. The HRE didn't directly change world history and not one indivisual member did anything notable world-wide. The same is true with Japan, just slightly less-so.

One HRE minor can perhaps in this aspect be compared with Japan if the HRE minor in case didn't do much things notable world-wide, but not the HRE as a whole. That had a huge impact on the world.

Potentially it could have far more, on the scale of Portugal or so in its own way. That didn't happen of course, so don't go saying i'm now saying the actual Japanese history is comprable to Portugal, but potentially it could have been. More than any other state, even perhaps china, its impact really came down to luck as to Oda being the right man who didn't end up dying at the right time.

Let's not talk about potential things.
 
Last edited:

almoravid

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niceta said:
ok Japan is potentially comparable to Portugal.
If Japan discovered Europe and colonized the Isle of Man, dominating the maritime trade of the entire southern Eurasia en passent, I'd maybe agree with you.

Saying that HRE had as much impact on the rest of the world is also laughable. Would it be not for Frederik II of Prussia, who survived for 7 years fighting the world's strongest militaries, Canada, and maybe also the USA could be speaking french. If not for the wealth and courage of an Austria, Europe could be overrun by the Turks. Hundreds of inventions and the greatest artistic and philosophic works are what the world owes to the HRE. Compare it to a medieval isle where people kept beheading each other well into mid-19th century, and which did nothing to the world outside it, except invading Korea once. Indeed, Balkans, the frontline between european and muslim worlds, had much more impact on the course of history.

From gameplay perspective, a bigger HRE is needed because of it's role as a buffer between Eastern and Western Europe. We don't want France to border Poland, thus we need a healthy Germany with healthy minors and semi-majors. On the other hand, what difference is there between a five-province Japan and a 50-province version of that country? Who, outside of Japan, cares? I'd love to have a well-represented Japan because I, unlike some HC members, don't think there can be any 'unnecessary detail', yet still, I'd not want to be unable to have a useful and interesting country just because yet another clan on one of these isles is added.
 

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FAL said:
[...]in the HRE various major nations fought wars, In Japan this did not happen.

I am not disputing the fact that Japan had been involved in wars with a few other countries, but I am disputing this has anything to do with more tags needed for Japan. A Japan invading Korea could be simulated perfectly with only ONE tag, the NIP tag (as is the case in vanilla).
You don't need 15 tags to represent Japanese interaction with the outside world.
While you do need that many tags for the HRE to represent it's interaction with the outside world.
A good point. I definitely want to model the Sengoku using multiple tags, but FAL's point is true. Japan's external relations need no more than, oh, three or four tags at most - that's if we want different tags for different possible alt-histories (Shimazu, Hideyoshi, maybe one more). The rest is for accurate/meaningful modeling of the internal dynamics.

This is not to say that I have a problem with modeling Japan's internal conflicts. It works well with the engine (to an extent). It will probably be great fun. And Japan's size and wealth certainly merit this sort of attention.

My concern has always been that all these extra tags (beyond my arbitrary 8) simply give us more historical accuracy over a very small time span. Unless they either
(a) increase historical accuracy over a longer timespan, or
(b) enhance the versimilitude/quality of gameplay during the period to a significant degree,
Then the loss of historical accuracy is acceptable.

FAL said:
Enough to consider ALL of Europe combined?
I'd like to see some more information about this subject then. My first instinct is to say it's a ridiculous statement though.
In terms of wealth and scope of infulence, China in 1419 was roughly equivalent to all of Europe combined, yes. But as the game progresses this is not true anymore, and besides the game engine can't handle this reality so China is toned down from the start.

FAL said:
I say the Balkan had more impact on world history than Japan indeed. But let's for a matter of simplicity just concentrate ourselves at the HRE in this discussion.
I would disagree. The Balkans had a pretty big impact on a region for the first 100 years, then it was just occupied territory. We can play "what if" games and note how dfifferent events in the Balkans could have cascaded and caused worldwide effects, but you can play the same games in Japan. For example, imagine if Japan skips its 200 year isolation and becomes a European-level power in 1700 in stead of 1900, and occupies China and Indonesia in 1740 in stead of 1940.
 

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OK, I don't think that there's much more useful to say in this discussion.

Jinnai, write your 15 tag solution. (Or whatever you feel is the very lowest number of tags you can pull it off with.) Seriously. I think it's pointless for us to debate any further without having seen what you're planning.

After you write it, one of several things could happen:

- We decide it's great and put it in as is.
- We decide it's OK, but too many tags, but since we're not using all those tags right now we may as well use them for Japan for the time being, so we put it in as is, with the proviso that it may be modified later.
- We decide it's too many tags, and you or someone else modifies it to use less tags. (But at least then we can talk specifics in stead of these useless generalities we are talking about right now.)

Even if it ends up being the third case, I know I will keep the tag-eating solution on file and play with it now and then.
 

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I think option 2 would be the worst case scenario. I believe it was you who pointed it out before, that its harder to get things out of the mod, once they are in, then keeping them out in the first place. If we have any feeling that the tags are going to be re-distributed at some point, they shouldn't be given out.
 

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Garbon said:
I think option 2 would be the worst case scenario. I believe it was you who pointed it out before, that its harder to get things out of the mod, once they are in, then keeping them out in the first place. If we have any feeling that the tags are going to be re-distributed at some point, they shouldn't be given out.
Completely agree, and I also agree with whoever said you guys should save about 8 of these extra tags to make sure you don't have something you want to add in a couple of months.
 

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This by no means is everything I have planned, but its some stuff i could compile quickly to show you what I intend.

These are based on MyMap as that is the only map i have to go by right now.

Starting nations:
Ashikaga (Shogun)
Chosokabe (?)
Date
Hojo
Imagawa
Hosokawa
Miyosh
Morii
Otomo
Ouichi
Shimazu
Uesagi
Yamana

Luchu (technically not a part of Japan at the beginning. This tag has been asked for seperate from Japan)

Ashikaga
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism
DP sliders: As is currently

Capital: Yamashiro

Owned:
Kaga
Tosa (? see Chosokabe)
Yamashiro

Core:
Yamashiro

Revolt: no

Chosokabe -
Unsure if i will start them out or they will be a revolter, If I do they will start with:

Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism

Capital: Tosa

Own:
Tosa

Core:
Tosa
Awa

Revolt: yes
Tosa always, Awa optional, Japanese culture

if I don't have them start out Tosa will either be in Miyoshi or more likely Ashikaga hands with it starting out controlled by rebels.

Date:
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism
DP Sliders: Defensive, Lower Aristorcy, Lower Serfdom

Capital: Mutsu

Owned
Dewa
Echigo
Ezochi
Mutsu

Core:
Dewa
Mutsu
Echigo (?)

Revolt: yes
Dewa, Mutsu always, Ezochi optional, Japanese culture, buddhism religion

Hojo:
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism
DP sliders: High Aristorcy, High Serfdom, Low Innovative

Capital: Musashi

Owned:
Musashi

Core:
Musashi

Revolt: yes
Musashi always, Kai, Kozuke optional, Japanese culture, buddhism religion

Hosokawa
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism

Capital: Yamoto

Owned:
Owari
Yamoto

Core:
Yamoto

Revolt: yes, except Yamana
Yamoto always, no optional, Japanese culture

Imagawa
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism
DP Sliders: High Aristocrcy, High Serfdom
Extra: I want to set it up so they'll fall quickly

Capital: Shimano

Owned:
Kai
Shinano

Core:
Kai
Shinano

Revolt: Yes, except Hojo
Shinago always, Kai optional, Japanese culture, Buddhism religion

Miyoshi
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism
DP Sliders: Offensive

Capital: Awa

Owned:
Awa
Tosa (? see Chosokabe)

Core:
Awa
Tosa

Revolt: Yes, except tosa
Awa always, Tosa and Yamoto optional, Japanese culture

Mori
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism
DP Sliders: Somewhat mercantile

Capital: Bingo

Owned:
Bingo

Core:
Bingo

Revolt: Yes, except Ouichi
Bingo always, Sou, Izumo optional, Japanese culture

Tosa (? see Chosokabe)

Otomo
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism
DP Sliders: High mercantile

Capital: Bungo

Owned:
Bungo
Higo
Hizen (CoT)

Core:
Bungo
Hizen

Revolt: Yes, except Shimazu
Bungo always, Higo, Hizen, Hyuga optional, Japanese culture

Ouichi
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism
DP Sliders: Somewhat mercantile

Capital: Sou

Owned:
Izumo
Sou

Core:
Izumo
Sou

Revolt: Yes, except Mori
Izumo, Sou always, Bingo optional, Japanese culture

Shimazu
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism
DP Sliders: Somewhat mercantile, high inovative

Capital: Hyuga

Owned:
Hyuga

Core:
Hyuga

Revolt: Yes, except Otomo
Hyuga always, Bungo, Higo, Hizen optional, Japanese culture

Uesagi:
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism
Extra: I want to set it up so they'll fall quickly

Capital: Kazuke

Owned:
Kozuke

Core:
Kozuke

Revolt: Yes
Echigo always, no optional, Japanese culture

Yamana
Culture: Japanese
Religion: Buddhism/Confuscianism

Capital: Harima

Owned:
Harima

Core:
Harima

Revolt: Yes, except Hosokawa
Harima always, no optional, Japanese culture

Revolters only:
Oda:
Owari always, no optional

Tokugawa
Kai always, no optional

Either:
Toyotomi
Yamashiro always, Yamoto optional

or

Ogimachi Restoriton (?) (fantasy)
Yamashiro always (dunno bout any others), by event only (likely in 1585-6)


Startinga lliances:

Ashikaga
Vassals:
Chosokabe (if exists)
Date
Hojo
Imagawa
Hosokawa
Miyosh
Otomo
Ouichi
Uesagi
Yamana

Ouichi:
Vassals:
Mori

Otomo:
Vassals:
Shimazu

(i may also make Imagawa and/or Uesagi vassals of Hojo, more for game-balance reasons).

Ouichi-Mori-Yamana alliance

Ashikaga MA to everyone, RM Hosokawa
 

Pellucid

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Jinnai said:
[Lots of detailed Japan stuff.]
Seriously, you should totally make your own map and make a mod entirely devoted to that period in Japanese history. It would be a lot cooler than a short 20 years in AGC-EEP, and you'd have a lot more design room.
 

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Pellucid said:
Seriously, you should totally make your own map and make a mod entirely devoted to that period in Japanese history. It would be a lot cooler than a short 20 years in AGC-EEP, and you'd have a lot more design room.
If i did, it would be with the CK engine and Inferis hasn't figured out how to get good map redrawings for that yet.
 

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doktarr said:
In terms of wealth and scope of infulence, China in 1419 was roughly equivalent to all of Europe combined, yes. But as the game progresses this is not true anymore, and besides the game engine can't handle this reality so China is toned down from the start.
wrong. in 1419 europe had little influence over areas outside europe but China had substantial influence over areas outside China - east indies, japan mongolia SE Asia central Asia. in 1419, China's wealth is at least twice that of the whole of europe combined. not to mention the amount of population china had compared with the whole of europe combined. in fact, the whole of europe combined never overtook China in terms of manufacturing production in the entire period of the game. Read Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations. It was the industrial revolution (1800s) that really brought Europe to dominate the WHOLE world. i disagree with MKJ's comment that the only nations he can count that had influence over the world during the game period is portugal spain france UK and the dutch. I do not think any nation can be said to have influence over the whole world unless it had influence on China, and during the entire game period no european nation had any significant influence on china, i'd say china's economic influence on europe is stronger than the reverse during the game period.

back on topic, Jinnai, if i were u, i would write a solution that is unlikely to be much altered by the HC or community rather than write a solution only to have it modified/criticized substantially by HC. As you are aware, a 15 tag solution is still far from the 8 tag solution which a few HC members already expressed their approval. I note your comment that the 20 tag solution is already an oversimplification. However, my comment is that the game itself is an oversimplification of reality. what we need to do is work under the game engine so as to come up with the best simplification overall. what is more this is a game ultimately with a european focus, designed by europeans from a european perspective, with mostly european players, and a game engine that has many european historical assumptions. Asia can never be simulated on the level of accuracy as europe is simulated in the game. As doktarr has mentioned a few times, a 15 tag solution is likely to lead to early annexations and more possible irregularities that makes it difficult to guide the course of historical outcome (i am implicitly referring to the project's mission statement as I am saying this). Whats more, i do not even think that most HC members endorse the current province division of japan and is likely to cut down on the number.
 

Pellucid

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Sun_Zi_36 said:
and during the entire game period no european nation had any significant influence on china, i'd say china's economic influence on europe is stronger than the reverse during the game period.
Errr...the opium trade much? Spheres of influence much? The Boxer Rebellion much? Sure, the actual Boxer Rebellion doesn't occur during the timespan of the game, but some of the important events leading up to it sure do.
 

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Actually, none of the events you mention fall under the EU period, they all fall in the 19th century. The Opium wars fall two decades after the EU timeframe, and the spheres of influence even further after that.
 

unmerged(2456)

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Sun_Zi_36 said:
back on topic, Jinnai, if i were u, i would write a solution that is unlikely to be much altered by the HC or community rather than write a solution only to have it modified/criticized substantially by HC. As you are aware, a 15 tag solution is still far from the 8 tag solution which a few HC members already expressed their approval. I note your comment that the 20 tag solution is already an oversimplification. However, my comment is that the game itself is an oversimplification of reality. what we need to do is work under the game engine so as to come up with the best simplification overall. what is more this is a game ultimately with a european focus, designed by europeans from a european perspective, with mostly european players, and a game engine that has many european historical assumptions. Asia can never be simulated on the level of accuracy as europe is simulated in the game. As doktarr has mentioned a few times, a 15 tag solution is likely to lead to early annexations and more possible irregularities that makes it difficult to guide the course of historical outcome (i am implicitly referring to the project's mission statement as I am saying this). Whats more, i do not even think that most HC members endorse the current province division of japan and is likely to cut down on the number.
What allowed for such is no longer available because of the dynamics of the new map. As said i might be able to get down to 14 if i can figure out what should go in central Kantou region in 1419 because something needs to go there since the Imagawa were still very much around then.
 

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Shadowstrike said:
Actually, none of the events you mention fall under the EU period, they all fall in the 19th century. The Opium wars fall two decades after the EU timeframe, and the spheres of influence even further after that.
Pellucid said:
Sure, the actual Boxer Rebellion doesn't occur during the timespan of the game, but some of the important events leading up to it sure do.
Learn english. Comprehend.
 

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Pellucid said:
Learn english. Comprehend.

Personal insults do not earn you allies.