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Garbon

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Mad King James said:
Eh? Not at all. Don't forget the vanilla map only had 2 provinces for this whole area. Trying to figure out which of the equally-large Ghazi states to give Smyrna to prompted everyone to throw up their hands and just make a state called "Ghazi" there.

I originally had called the state Germiyan but people complained at the name.


Mad King James said:
However, Hamid was ruled by the same dynasty as Tekke, so it's sort of pointless to have both. Hell some maps don't even seperate the two. So really all we need as a new tag is Germiyan. 1 new tag then.

Agreed

Mad King James said:
We could even remove Ramazan and Dulkadir, which were very weak Mameluke vassal states, not all that different from Medina and Mecca which we HAVE removed already, and even SAVE a tag.

Most definitely disagree. Ramazan frequently switched sides between the Ottomans and Mams as a border state. Dulkadir caused the Mamluks significant trouble and also was involved in events with the Ak Koyunlu.
 

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Eldin said:
Pellucid, if that is really what you think, you sir, are an idiot.

For one, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea ravaged that nation into poverty for the next 3 centuries and forced the Ming into bankruptcy, and some theorise to their ultimate fall. And that is just one megalomaniac shogun in 1590. Japan could have had more.
Please reread the AGCEEP sub forum rules in the sticky thread.
Also please familiarize yourself with the board rules before posting again.
 

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doktarr said:
8+NIP, as you understand. I'm not going to go on a killing spree if it ends up being 9+NIP, either. My point is simply that from a gameplay perspective, pretty massive diminishing returns kick in at that level of tags. From a perspective of perfectly faithful historical simulation, many more tags would be useful, but that should not be our goal, I think.
If this can be achieved I think it would be a very good compromise that wouldn't drain all remaining tags.
 

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I've changed my first post on the "new country" thread to give an overview of the tag situation
 

Pellucid

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Mad King James said:
Eh? Not at all. Don't forget the vanilla map only had 2 provinces for this whole area. Trying to figure out which of the equally-large Ghazi states to give Smyrna to prompted everyone to throw up their hands and just make a state called "Ghazi" there.

Now sure we could NOW add in 5 of those states as one province minors (Saruhan and Aydin unfortunately would have to share) but Aydin, Mentese and Saruhan were extremely short lived Ottoman vassal states, so we're probably better off just giving their provinces to the Ottoman Empire. That leaves us with Tekke, Germiyan and Hamid. We already basically have Tekke, so that would be 2 new tags in Anatolia; Germiyan and Hamid.

However, Hamid was ruled by the same dynasty as Tekke, so it's sort of pointless to have both. Hell some maps don't even seperate the two. So really all we need as a new tag is Germiyan. 1 new tag then.

We could even remove Ramazan and Dulkadir, which were very weak Mameluke vassal states, not all that different from Medina and Mecca which we HAVE removed already, and even SAVE a tag.
I was kidding, man. :D
 

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doktarr said:
8+NIP, as you understand. I'm not going to go on a killing spree if it ends up being 9+NIP, either. My point is simply that from a gameplay perspective, pretty massive diminishing returns kick in at that level of tags. From a perspective of perfectly faithful historical simulation, many more tags would be useful, but that should not be our goal, I think.
I agree.
 

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Several things:
First (on empires):

Almoravid was essentially correct with his statement as to what an "empire" is. However one must also add that these additional areas must be forcibly annexed. Also empires are not limited to dictatorships or monarchies. Roman Republic and US were (and in the latter could still be seen as) empires.

Second (on # tags):
Pelluid - While initally i proposed 20 tags used, its no longer that high.

Doktarr - Eldin's 8 tag proposal only concerned the Sengoku Jidai period. He said atleast once he was not familiar with the Onin war period which would require additional tags. He also did not say if he was familiar with the Tokugowan era which would require atleast another aditional tag (Chosokabe if it wasn't used before).

Third (on my other proposal):
Doktarr, even at that time their were huge flaws with it. HUGE. It was better than nothing, yes, but two pennies are better than one penny. And I still don't know if it would go off right and somesuch because of the mass changing in-and-out of dynasties tag changes, mass event firings, etc. That's not including the quickness that would likely have occured. Plus i came up with a better, but still quite poor, working for the Onin war, something that wouldn't work this time arounds.

Also another reason I was able to pull it off was that there were no capital moves and all provinces were named after their head province capital. That helped. This time around it won't work at all because they all have different capital provinces.

Conclusion:
The dynamics that allowed for 6 tags aren't there and it would far more unfair to limit them to that or even the 8 (because as said, Eldin's proposal only revolved around the Sengoku Jidai period. You can't ingore the rest of history, unless you're going to do the same for HRE and just focus on a brief period).

Also even with 15 tags (hell even 20, but i'm not asking for 20), this is a vast simplication. After the end of the Sengoku Jidai when many clans were destoryed, there were estimated to be around 250 left, give or take 100. All those clans held territory. Just like HRE, most of them are small and unworthy of being modeled on any level, so I don't bother. So yea this is a simplified setup of Japan.
 

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8 is as many as should be used. Even in the overly-complex-for-its time game "Shingen the Ruler," there were only about 16 clans, and that entire game was devoted to this period in Japanese history.

Let's throw the major players in, maybe some representation for the Ikko rebels, and call it an event.
 

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Pellucid said:
8 is as many as should be used. Even in the overly-complex-for-its time game "Shingen the Ruler," there were only about 16 clans, and that entire game was devoted to this period in Japanese history.

Let's throw the major players in, maybe some representation for the Ikko rebels, and call it an event.
You write the events then.
 

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7 of 33 is a little over 20%...sounds like a hefty proportion to me. Japan may have influenced its neighbours, but what about the proposed new tags? Is it possible to introduce an extra criterion for inclusion (for each of the new proposed tags) that ran along the lines of an active EU2 diplomacy with tags outside of Japan? Or would that exclude too many? I am thinking about this from a Civil war standpoint. Most of our current Civil War tags led a fairly active international diplomatic life.
 

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ribbon22 said:
7 of 33 is a little over 20%...sounds like a hefty proportion to me. Japan may have influenced its neighbours, but what about the proposed new tags? Is it possible to introduce an extra criterion for inclusion (for each of the new proposed tags) that ran along the lines of an active EU2 diplomacy with tags outside of Japan? Or would that exclude too many? I am thinking about this from a Civil war standpoint. Most of our current Civil War tags led a fairly active international diplomatic life.
Well also most of those other civil war tags did not have the foundations to make a seperate long-term nation. French Ultra Catholics come to mind as one of the best examples of this.

Also comparitively for # of provinces vs. # of tags its actually less that HRE and the HRE had similar level of influence as Japan on the world scale. The HRE is also getting more tags as well though, not as many as Japan I'm requesting, but they already have a huge number to begin with.
 
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Jinnai said:
Also comparitively for # of provinces vs. # of tags its actually less that HRE and the HRE had similar level of influence as Japan on the world scale. The HRE is also getting more tags as well though, not as many as Japan I'm requesting, but they already have a huge number to begin with.

Sorry, but that's not true.

Take for example the 30-years war. That 30-year timeframe was more important and had more influence on the world in the EU2 timeframe than Japan had in 300 years.
 

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FAL said:
Sorry, but that's not true.

Take for example the 30-years war. That 30-year timeframe was more important and had more influence on the world in the EU2 timeframe than Japan had in 300 years.
The 30-year war was mostly over in 1419 so i don't see it as hardly relevant. Most of the major things already happened. In fact England winning is more of an option i view on par with the outward looking china.

The only other world-altering thing was that they were the area that founded Protestantism, but it needn't have been them either. Someplace else could have. England FE.

By the same token, China was also bankrupted by Japanese during the invasion by Hideyoshi. This caused the fall of the Ming Dynasty which had reprocussions dealing with all of Asia and the nations that dealt with China in west, Portugal and England mostly. Someone else could have done this of course.

The point being that Japan had a similar impact as the HRE, maybe slightly less, but by comparison it doesn't have as many provinces or am i wanting as many tags either.


And you, as many people do, ignore the statement i made earlier as it doesn't seem to suit your cause, atleast that's what it looks like. The fewer tag option Doktarr mentioned won't work because of the dynamics of the new map.
 
Last edited:

Eldin

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Jinnai said:
Second (on # tags):
Pelluid - While initally i proposed 20 tags used, its no longer that high.

Doktarr - Eldin's 8 tag proposal only concerned the Sengoku Jidai period. He said atleast once he was not familiar with the Onin war period which would require additional tags. He also did not say if he was familiar with the Tokugowan era which would require atleast another aditional tag (Chosokabe if it wasn't used before).

I resent that! I never said I knew little of the Tokugawa shogunate (I think :eek:o ). That said, there were some uprisings against the Tokugawa shogunate but I honestly think they are best shown as rebels in a last push. I don't see a need to use a tag for that... what's there in the period anyway? The battle of Sekigahara and some christian rebellions. I see no reason to subdivide the country in this late period AGAIN. It will have been done twice in 100 years before that, and there really are just two factions who will last no more than at most a few years since they are on a ramming course. No point wasting a tag on, methinks. Just have a 'control Edo' trigger for the rebels and then the Toyotomi win (to give a much decentralised shogunate, much like the Ashikaga one, I suppose). As for the Christian rebellions... noone ever really expected them to win anyway :)

So, that give I think, what? At most 10 tags including those in the Onin war? Or could tags be recycled for this one?

Oh, one last thing, why must you misspell 'Tokugawa' so? :(
 

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Jinnai said:
The 30-year war was mostly over in 1419 so i don't see it as hardly relevant. Most of the major things already happened. In fact England winning is more of an option i view on par with the outward looking china.

That's the hundred years war you're talking about and it was hardly 'nearly over', England was winning at the time. But it has been handled gracefully :)

The 30 years war in the HRE (over many issues, including religion and ambitious advocated Bohemian kings): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_years_war
 

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Jinnai said:
No i never plan to have Japan untied, not unless the human player really intends to push for it, because even under Tokugowa it wasn't.

Really, that's a bit extreme. A feudal system as the Japanese one COULD be represented with vassalisations, but I see no reason why. We don't do it Europe either, at least not to the amount you are suggesting :confused:

edit: The only clan that really needs to be independent is the Shimazu clan, methinks.
 

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Eldin said:
Really, that's a bit extreme. A feudal system as the Japanese one COULD be represented with vassalisations, but I see no reason why. We don't do it Europe either, at least not to the amount you are suggesting :confused:

edit: The only clan that really needs to be independent is the Shimazu clan, methinks.
The HRE, the last real remnant of feudal europe's governing system, is still done that way and Japan, even under Tokugawa is still colse to what HRE is in EU2, with just a stronger central government.
 
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Jinnai said:
The 30-year war was mostly over in 1419 so i don't see it as hardly relevant. Most of the major things already happened. In fact England winning is more of an option i view on par with the outward looking china.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war

The Thirty Years' War was a conflict fought between the years 1618 and 1648, principally on the territory of todays Germany, but also involving most of the major continental powers.

Update your HRE knowledge. You really are out of your league with suggesting Japan had a similiar impact on the world.

The only other world-altering thing was that they were the area that founded Protestantism, but it needn't have been them either. Someplace else could have. England FE.

The HRE was not only the area where Protestantism was founded, but also the area where bitter wars of religion were fought.
But, more importantly, this was not just a war in the HRE by HRE minors, but a war where major nations outside the HRE got involved as well.
Sweden, France, Austria, Spain etc. all fought bitterly in the HRE. And that's only 30 years we're talking about now.

Japan had none of that in it's entire eu2 existance.

By the same token, China was also bankrupted by Japanese during the invasion by Hideyoshi.
This caused the fall of the Ming Dynasty which had reprocussions dealing with all of Asia and the nations that dealt with China in west, Portugal and England mostly. Someone else could have done this of course.

Isn't that a disputed viewpoint?

And you, as many people do, ignore the statement i made earlier as it doesn't seem to suit your cause, atleast that's what it looks like. The fewer tag option Doktarr mentioned won't work because of the dynamics of the new map.

I am not ignoring you. I am still trying to get convinced why Japan is of similiar importance as the HRE. Or even the Balkan.
When I am, I won't object to so many Japanese tags anymore.
 
Last edited:
Jul 24, 2003
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Jinnai said:
The HRE, the last real remnant of feudal europe's governing system, is still done that way and Japan, even under Tokugawa is still colse to what HRE is in EU2, with just a stronger central government.

No, it isn't. Japan under the Edo period was more united than the HRE ever was.

The Holy Roman Empire was an institution that was unique in world history and therefore difficult to grasp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire