almoravid

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Jinnai said:
With the exception of Hideyoshi, many of these are clans existing while Germany was still under Charlamagne's rule. And even those that are younger still before the reconquista.
Hojo may stay, but many should go. Lots of really old clans were there in Scotland, yet we represent them as... Scotland. The same was done to Japan - maybe that's not enough detail, so that we should represent the largest, strongest and most longevited ones as tags - but not every single!

The same level of relevance as what the impact of who won the Sengoku Jidai had.
Sengoku Jidai could be won by anybody, yet that wouldn't change anything on the opening of Nagasaki to American battleships and on Meiji Restoration which would result from this. Seriously, what did the japanese change in the rest of the world 1419-1819, apart from having their pirates raid chinese coast and invading Korea once, which even was not done for conquest but rather to have some samurais killed? Would Vladislav of Hungary defeat the Ottomans at Varna, the world would have been an entirely different place. What would change if Hideyoshi had beaten Tokugawa?
 

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almoravid said:
There are still 17 on his list (unless I counted wrongly), which is a majority. Also, Japan's case can't be compared with HRE, where most nations existed for at least 100 years, normally much longer. Here we have some Hideyoshi who would much better be represented by events and revolts. We don't give a country to Yuri Dmitrievich or Michael Glinski, who both formed considerable states in their countries, and fought central authority.

There are already 6 tags reserved for Japanese states that is separate from the 33 listed free tags.

Are any of the states that aren't listed with colored name, representing states that were carved out by solely one person? What you've said of Yuri Dmitrievich and Michael Glinksi sounds like the Lord of An Hua et al. that have been axed.
 

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almoravid said:
What would change if Hideyoshi had beaten Tokugawa?
More expansionsit Japan likely Korean invasion, earlier Ryukyu invasions, invasions in some other areas (maybe even china).

If FE Shimezu won, it would be a mercantile Cahtolic Japan and all that entails.

Hojo would likely have been more of the same, ie, the closure was part of also reforms, so Hojo would have likely conintued the old system of trade.

etc.
 

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Garbon said:
I agree with this.
I never intended to. I'm content with the current list of Eldin, dropping out Amako and adding Chosokabe and the 4 powers for the Onin Wa (Ouichi, Yamana, Hosokowa and Miysohi (prelude))r, and the default Shogunates. Toyotomi could be represented by another tag.
 

almoravid

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Garbon said:
Are any of the states that aren't listed with colored name, representing states that were carved out by solely one person? What you've said of Yuri Dmitrievich and Michael Glinksi sounds like the Lord of An Hua et al. that have been axed.
Yuri Dmitrievich gained his territories before the scenario starts, and stopped obeying to Moscow once Vasily II inherited the throne in 1425. In 1433 he has beaten Vasily and gained the throne, yet died only a year later. Vasily inherited Moscow once again, yet the territories of 'Yuri's state' passed to Yuri's son, who again managed to take the throne of Moscow in 1445, and was finally defeated in 1450s. That's an equivalent of Hideyoshi vs. Tokugawa, in my opinion - not to mention that even York and Lancaster are getting axed.
 

Eldin

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Whaa! There is no such thing as a Hideyoshi clan! It's the Toyotomi clan, blast you! :mad:

Many of these clans had a house style, for example, as Jinnai stated, the Shimazu would probably have made the country catholic, and the implications of that would be drastic, as you understand. The Mori were navally inclined and would have made a similar impact, and other clans had other preferences. The fact is though, that it would not be as quiet as it would be under the Tokugawa. The Tokugawa centralised the country mercilessly, up to the point of closing it. I have serious doubts another clan would have managed this. I can think only of Oda. I think that had he lived, he would have done largely the same as Tokugawa, but it is pure speculation.

Which reminds me, would it be fine if it were split after a certain date? I think it should be possible...
 

Mad King James

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The thing is, do we even need to have a "Japan" tag?

Why not just have the various clans? I don't think it would be that weird to see "Tokugawa" as the country ruling all of Japan post-SJ.

If we do have a "Japan" tag, it should have the Emperors as monarchs and be a fantasy early restoration of the emperor.

So that puts us at 13 tags, or just 7 more than is already reserved.
 

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Anyway here is the current list:

Kyushu:
Shimazu
Otomo

Kansai:
Ouichi
Mori
Yamana

Kantou:
Ashikaga
Hosokawa
Hojo
Uesagi
Imegawa
Oda (Later)
Tokugoawa (Later)

Shigoku:
Chosokabe (Revolter?)
Miyoshi

Mutsu:
Date

Imegawa is the 15th i mentioned above. That would mean at most 9 tags would be used for Japan in addition.
 

Toio

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Jinnai said:
For the last time:

JAPAN DID HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Sure its not as impactful as England or OE, but neither is Balkan's impact on the rest of the world (in this era, because if we go with post EU2 and its impact i can do the same for Japan) that great.

I'm game.

Show me the sources that prove that Japan had an impact on ~10 other countries and I am convinced. That's what the balkan is about afterall.
Show me some sources that prove that various major nations fought for or in Japan and I will kiss your feet. That's what the balkan is about.

And let's not compare Japan with the HRE shall we? It's outright silly.
 
Last edited:

Sute]{h

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FAL said:
And let's not compare Japan with the HRE shall we? It's outright silly.
Not at all. Japan wasn't a state, it was an empire.
 

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niceta said:
Absolutely yes or absolutely not? :D
I'm sincerely astonished. :eek:
former. You normally ad the 'not' if you disagree with the premise of the question.

But yes,HRE is a excellent, albeit not perfect comparison (because no comparison to any country is perfect).