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Garbon

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Jinnai said:
Well again that isn't viable. Too many events to script and too many back-up events to script. Hokkaido is okay, but more than that and it'll take a nightmare of events, resources, etc. Sure it'll save a tag, but at what cost?


Am I missing something? Couldn't you just have province events that plunge the tax value of the region down quite a bit at the start of the conflict (perhaps remove a fortification or tax collector, as well) and then afterwards, have ones that bring the values back up again?
 

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Garbon said:
I don't think however, that its fair to speak of tag excesses when Paradox gave a region only one tag. Even the addition of tag, doubles tag use in the area. ;)

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about when you say "Russia"...are you talking simply the European side or the whole modern day country? We all know that talking about the latter would be foolish seeing as how large portions of the country was inhabited by tribes at this time.
The european part alone would be several times as big. And I don't object giving a number of tags to Japan, I just object giving all or at least the majority of the tags we still have to one region. Five to ten tags would be OK in my opinion.
 

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almoravid said:
The european part alone would be several times as big. And I don't object giving a number of tags to Japan, I just object giving all or at least the majority of the tags we still have to one region. Five to ten tags would be OK in my opinion.

However, I think the other part you missed on my Germany comparision, would be if Paradox had decided the represent the HRE as a unified nation and didn't provide us with tags for all the mini states. Just looking at the amount of nations that fall into the borders of modern day Germany + the states that people want to add for the region, would exceed the amount of tags that Jinnai is requesting.

Oh and 12 out of 33 isn't a majority. :p
 

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Garbon said:
Am I missing something? Couldn't you just have province events that plunge the tax value of the region down quite a bit at the start of the conflict (perhaps remove a fortification or tax collector, as well) and then afterwards, have ones that bring the values back up again?
Plunge taxvalue, yes, remove tax collector, yes, remove fortifcations, maybe, if its above level 2.

The problem is when to go back up and who it goes to. If its an Ashikaga provicne, well who does it go to? Their putterteers (traditionally the Hosakowa), the new Shogunate (Toyotomi) the closest neighbor?

Plus plunging taxvalue doesn't plunge manpower entirely. You can do that as well. It also doesn't disallow for random events that would have raised/lowered taxvalue otherwise. Very messy. You can of course add RR, but too high and you'll get troop stacks which will eventually take the province, but you have to put them down afterwords (which isn't quite historic).

And again Chosokabe was the legitimate daimyo over Shigoku and also the Miyoshi it seems also either retreated back to Shigoku or regrouped in their homeland similar to Uesagi, but were eventually put under Chosokabe rule either way.
1583.gif
 
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Unless you're planning on severely deviating from history, this project is a complete waste of tags and time. You're going to waste HOW many tags on a 20-year period? This is insanity; severely reducing the number of tags available to the rest of the world for 20-years of "fun" as Japan; 20 years that NOT putting in the game would have the exact same effect on the rest of the EU world.
 

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Jinnai said:
Plunge taxvalue, yes, remove tax collector, yes, remove fortifcations, maybe, if its above level 2.

The problem is when to go back up and who it goes to. If its an Ashikaga provicne, well who does it go to? Their putterteers (traditionally the Hosakowa), the new Shogunate (Toyotomi) the closest neighbor?

Plus plunging taxvalue doesn't plunge manpower entirely. You can do that as well. It also doesn't disallow for random events that would have raised/lowered taxvalue otherwise. Very messy. You can of course add RR, but too high and you'll get troop stacks which will eventually take the province, but you have to put them down afterwords (which isn't quite historic).

Perhaps, you could just not have a scripted end for who the province goes to. Let it go to whomever it does?

If Ashikaga lucks out and had lets say got +5 taxvalue due to events in that province, well then power to them. What you are calling messy, I'd just call quirks that could have occurred in the engine. I don't think its the point of events to account for every possible outcome.
 

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Pellucid said:
Unless you're planning on severely deviating from history, this project is a complete waste of tags and time. You're going to waste HOW many tags on a 20-year period? This is insanity; severely reducing the number of tags available to the rest of the world for 20-years of "fun" as Japan; 20 years that NOT putting in the game would have the exact same effect on the rest of the EU world.

Actually, this is a point that I'm unsure of. How many years would these tags ideally be in game for, I guess individually as someone would know doubt outlast others.
 

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Garbon said:
Perhaps, you could just not have a scripted end for who the province goes to. Let it go to whomever it does?

If Ashikaga lucks out and had lets say got +5 taxvalue due to events in that province, well then power to them. What you are calling messy, I'd just call quirks that could have occurred in the engine. I don't think its the point of events to account for every possible outcome.
I see it as messy and i'll be the one scripting it almost certainly. Its easy to say when you're not the person doing it. And Ashikaga should fall, just like the Timurid Empire. It was built on a foundation that was faulty and its demise started before the game even begins.
 

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Garbon said:
Actually, this is a point that I'm unsure of. How many years would these tags ideally be in game for, I guess individually as someone would know doubt outlast others.
Onin wars to the end of the Sengoku Jidai is the main time. After the Sengoku Jidai, they will play importance in more subtle ways. There is also atelast several possibiltiies, based on historic circumstances, for furture internal or external wars.
 

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Jinnai said:
I see it as messy and i'll be the one scripting it almost certainly. Its easy to say when you're not the person doing it. And Ashikaga should fall, just like the Timurid Empire. It was built on a foundation that was faulty and its demise started before the game even begins.

Its easy to say as what I suggested doesn't call for a great amount of events. *mellow*
 

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Garbon said:
Its easy to say as what I suggested doesn't call for a great amount of events. *mellow*
Whether or not they were a force beforehand, they were after just as much as Hojo or Shimazu. Their lands were not ruled directly like Hokkaido, even during 1419 and definatly not after 1583
 

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Jinnai said:
Onin wars to the end of the Sengoku Jidai is the main time. After the Sengoku Jidai, they will play importance in more subtle ways. There is also atelast several possibiltiies, based on historic circumstances, for furture internal or external wars.
I hope you plan on reusing the same tags over and over again, at least.

Look, I LOVED Shogun: Total War. Hell, I LOVED Shingen the Ruler for the NES...but it seems ridiculous to me to use so many tags on a region and an event that had absolutely no impact whatsoever on the rest of the world.
 

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Pellucid said:
I hope you plan on reusing the same tags over and over again, at least.

Look, I LOVED Shogun: Total War. Hell, I LOVED Shingen the Ruler for the NES...but it seems ridiculous to me to use so many tags on a region and an event that had absolutely no impact whatsoever on the rest of the world.
For the last time:

JAPAN DID HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Sure its not as impactful as England or OE, but neither is Balkan's impact on the rest of the world (in this era, because if we go with post EU2 and its impact i can do the same for Japan) that great.
 

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Garbon said:
Oh and 12 out of 33 isn't a majority. :p
There are still 17 on his list (unless I counted wrongly), which is a majority. Also, Japan's case can't be compared with HRE, where most nations existed for at least 100 years, normally much longer. Here we have some Hideyoshi who would much better be represented by events and revolts. We don't give a country to Yuri Dmitrievich or Michael Glinski, who both formed considerable states in their countries, and fought central authority.
 

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almoravid said:
There are still 17 on his list (unless I counted wrongly), which is a majority. Also, Japan's case can't be compared with HRE, where most nations existed for at least 100 years, normally much longer. Here we have some Hideyoshi who would much better be represented by events and revolts. We don't give a country to Yuri Dmitrievich or Michael Glinski, who both formed considerable states in their countries, and fought central authority.
With the exception of Hideyoshi, many of these are clans existing while Germany was still under Charlamagne's rule. And even those that are younger still before the reconquista.
 

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Jinnai said:
For the last time:

JAPAN DID HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Sure its not as impactful as England or OE, but neither is Balkan's impact on the rest of the world (in this era, because if we go with post EU2 and its impact i can do the same for Japan) that great.
Yes. Its impact was closing its ports so as not to have an impact.
 

Ivan Bajlo

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Jinnai said:
Sure its not as impactful as England or OE, but neither is Balkan's impact on the rest of the world (in this era, because if we go with post EU2 and its impact i can do the same for Japan) that great.

Yes that is probably why did Hungarians spent 100 year trying to push Ottoman's out of Serbia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, lost couple of good kings doing that, finally drained themselves and become easy pray - if they only knew how irrelevant Balkan is. :rolleyes:

Completely irrelevant compared to Samurai and ninjas, hey we should add ninjas to the game! How can we have Japan without ninjas. :p

P.S.
And I'm more evil then you. :rofl:
 

unmerged(2456)

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Ivan Bajlo said:
Yes that is probably why did Hungarians spent 100 year trying to push Ottoman's out of Serbia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, lost couple of good kings doing that, finally drained themselves and become easy pray - if they only knew how irrelevant Balkan is. :rolleyes:

Completely irrelevant compared to Samurai and ninjas, hey we should add ninjas to the game! How can we have Japan without ninjas. :p

P.S.
And I'm more evil then you. :rofl:
The same level of relevance as what the impact of who won the Sengoku Jidai had.
 

ZhugeKongming

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almoravid said:
There are still 17 on his list (unless I counted wrongly), which is a majority. Also, Japan's case can't be compared with HRE, where most nations existed for at least 100 years, normally much longer. Here we have some Hideyoshi who would much better be represented by events and revolts. We don't give a country to Yuri Dmitrievich or Michael Glinski, who both formed considerable states in their countries, and fought central authority.
Uhh, the Sengoku Jidai wasn't about some ambitious guys fighting central authority. For most of the era, there was no central authority.