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It would be nice to know how many other areas lack tags because of this pet project.

Tell me,

If Japan doesn't get extra tags, but the whole civil war is represented by rebellions and revolt risk in the provinces, in which way is it worser for the game as a whole?

In which way does giving Japan all those tags help the AGC-EEP representing the world as a whole better?
 

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Norrefeldt said:
Wouldn't it be possible to represent some of the minor players as rebellions or provincerevoltrisk?
Most of those areas already in red or orange. As said, i could add Toyotomi since they didn't have any land holdings representable in EU2 province sized and their reign as shoguns wasn't extremely long.

For the Onin War:
Yamana/Hosokawa are the two major players. Not having the both would be like having the 30-year war without either France or England.
Ouichi was the reason the Onin war lasted 5 more years than it did, just to make sure Ashikaga Yoshimasa named a successor himself.

For Sengoku Jidai:
Otomo/Shimazu battled it out in Kyushu. Actually it wasn't them two intially but those are the two who became the end-game powerhouses. Had they united Kyushu, they could well have swept through and united western Japan. Also Shimazu were the clan to embrace Catholism the most.

Amako/Mori/Ouichi It was Mori who united the land and if Mori Moratomi hadn't died in an accident less than a year before the western invasion of Japan by Oda, Japan's history most certainly wouldn't have been the same.

However Mori clan starts out as a vassal switiching sides littlely by the month with Amako and Ouichi to get the best deal. Ultimately they side with Ouichi, but this is well into the war. Without Amako, this element would be lost entirely and there is no real way to compensate.

Hojo/Takeda Hojo was intially the most favored nation to win the war. They were one of the older and more prestigious clans. They also had the most land and resources, but their leaders became worse and worse.

Takeda was likely, other than Mori, the most likely alternative to stopping Oda. He too died in an accident about the same time as Mori (coincidence?) These three men, Oda, Takeda, Mori were probably among not only Japan's greatest rulers, but near the top in atleast Asia, if not the world.

Date Well he isn't that important, but he's also the only real player in the north. Had he a bit more development the resources he controlled would have made Hojo's pale in comparison.

Post-Sengoku Jidai:
Hideyoshi They were the ones that really pushed for the outward invasions. Had they conquered Japan, Expansionsit Japan would not be so far-fetched.

Also Shimazu was even more important post-Sengoku Jidai than during it.

Others:
Miyoshi Had some impact in the Onin Wars, but mostly pre-onin wars. They Also could have tried to conquer Shigoku and done so, but they wanted the more developed land of the mainland. Also not having them in is giving Chosokabe too much power.

Chosokabe The only real powerhouse in Shigoku after they pushed out the Miyoshi and Ichijo (the latter which will likely be removed for tag shortage). Not much else to say, but they can't be represented by anyone else.

Uesugi They were intially the threat to Hojo before they were defeated early on. They are also the only clan during this entire period to reform itself and revolt (though perhpas some others might have). This was a real shock. Once they reformed, they were a regional threat to Date, Asakura, Hojo and eventually Tokugowa and Oda, but not a major player.

Asakura Asakura, as mentioned, did battle for supremacy as Shogun, but compared to others his battle was short lived. He did not do any major expansion (likely some, just nothing i've read about both online and from library books or articles). He is however the only major daimyo in the area, especially once the Ashikaga are destroyed.

Hokkaido See previous posts.

Ashikaga/Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugowa If I need to explain why Shogunates are important, please go to a library and read some books on Japanese history pre-Meiji Restoration era.
 

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Excuse me.
But you want to introduce those new Countries in the HC Game?
 

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Jinnai said:
Asakura Asakura, as mentioned, did battle for supremacy as Shogun, but compared to others his battle was short lived. He did not do any major expansion (likely some, just nothing i've read about both online and from library books or articles). He is however the only major daimyo in the area, especially once the Ashikaga are destroyed.

The way you talk about this one, makes him sound quite like the Lord of [insert name here] revolters that YM removed for the China addition.
 

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Garbon said:
The way you talk about this one, makes him sound quite like the Lord of [insert name here] revolters that YM removed for the China addition.
Which is why its highlighted in orange.
 

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There are actually 7 reserved for Japan, JAP and 6 U## (although i'd like to swap the U## for all non-U## for consistancy as U##) are no longer available.

As said, a couple of these could also be slated for removal if specific means of representing them otherwise could be done. Toyotomi and Amako are the two most likely candidates here.
 

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I made a comparison with Shogun Total War, starting in 1530.
For this game, designers modelled seven "major" daimyos:
Hojo
Uesugi
Oda
Takeda
Shimazu
Mori
...and last one I don't remember :( and I have no access to my source for the moment (maybe other HC member could help :cool: )

Some provinces are Rebels or Ronin controlled. I have maps for the setup (I will post if needed).

In this game, there are 60 (or so) provinces in Japan's map.

I don't say we have to do the same but we can look at it as a base, and of course, it doesn't model century before (Onin war).
This is to say: are 18 tags really needed for Japan (compared to Germany)? The six reserved are certainly not sufficient but, IMHO, 10 or 12 shouldn't be the max?
 

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YodaMaster said:
I made a comparison with Shogun Total War, starting in 1530.
For this game, designers modelled seven "major" daimyos:
Hojo
Uesugi
Oda
Takeda
Shimazu
Mori
...and last one I don't remember :( and I have no access to my source for the moment (maybe other HC member could help :cool: )

Some provinces are Rebels or Ronin controlled. I have maps for the setup (I will post if needed).

In this game, there are 60 (or so) provinces in Japan's map.

I don't say we have to do the same but we can look at it as a base, and of course, it doesn't model century before (Onin war).
This is to say: are 18 tags really needed for Japan (compared to Germany)? The six reserved are certainly not sufficient but, IMHO, 10 or 12 shouldn't be the max?
Century before as mentioned:
Ashikaga, Ouichi, Hosokawa, Yamana

Sengoku Jidai period (not on list):
Date (north)
Chosokabe

Post Sengoku Jidai (not previously important):
Tokugowa
Hideyoshi

So given that, Amako, Toyotomi, Miyoshi, Otomo might be able to be moved. Miyoshi being the most important dynamic-wise and historical lead-up to onin war-wise, followed by Otomo, for gameplay reasons.

The problem that leaves is the two island nations as one major block, especially Kyushu which will have the only CoT.
 

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Jinnai said:
Most of those areas already in red or orange. As said, i could add Toyotomi since they didn't have any land holdings representable in EU2 province sized and their reign as shoguns wasn't extremely long.

For the Onin War:
Yamana/Hosokawa are the two major players. Not having the both would be like having the 30-year war without either France or England.
Ouichi was the reason the Onin war lasted 5 more years than it did, just to make sure Ashikaga Yoshimasa named a successor himself.

Yamana/Hosokawa seems like a good idea, perhaps let Ouichi be RR.

For Sengoku Jidai:
Otomo/Shimazu battled it out in Kyushu. Actually it wasn't them two intially but those are the two who became the end-game powerhouses. Had they united Kyushu, they could well have swept through and united western Japan. Also Shimazu were the clan to embrace Catholism the most.

You will want the Shimazu, the Otomo to deliver counterweight, probably.

Amako/Mori/Ouichi It was Mori who united the land and if Mori Moratomi hadn't died in an accident less than a year before the western invasion of Japan by Oda, Japan's history most certainly wouldn't have been the same.

However Mori clan starts out as a vassal switiching sides littlely by the month with Amako and Ouichi to get the best deal. Ultimately they side with Ouichi, but this is well into the war. Without Amako, this element would be lost entirely and there is no real way to compensate.

Mori Motonari if I'm not mistaken :p otherwise you are right here, but if we drop Ouichi from Onin war, perhaps the Mori can have their territory (the Mori were not very big themselves at the beginning IIRC) and let their waivering allegiance on both sides be represented by high RR in several provinces?

Hojo/Takeda Hojo was intially the most favored nation to win the war. They were one of the older and more prestigious clans. They also had the most land and resources, but their leaders became worse and worse.

Takeda was likely, other than Mori, the most likely alternative to stopping Oda. He too died in an accident about the same time as Mori (coincidence?) These three men, Oda, Takeda, Mori were probably among not only Japan's greatest rulers, but near the top in atleast Asia, if not the world.

You're forgetting Uesugi Kenshin. Takeda Shingen didn't really care about the Oda clan and the real rivalry for a better part of the late Sengoku Jidai was between Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin, with Mori on the side (he was just too far away). Oda Nobunaga didn't really enter the picture until all these men had died and their incompetent sons spoiled their gains. Hojo are nice to have though their richness and vast holdings should be offset by a totally incompetent war AI :p

Date Well he isn't that important, but he's also the only real player in the north. Had he a bit more development the resources he controlled would have made Hojo's pale in comparison.

You're totally forgetting the Uesugi :eek: They might not have been that major in the beginning, but they expanded greatly thereafter. Their powerbase was the north, and they were in constant struggle with the Takeda from Kai.

Post-Sengoku Jidai:
Hideyoshi They were the ones that really pushed for the outward invasions. Had they conquered Japan, Expansionsit Japan would not be so far-fetched.

Hideyoshi was the blokes given name, his clan name is Toyotomi and I think Toyotomi Hideyoshi is really best represented as events in a unified Japan. Perhaps recycle an old tag to recycle Tokugawa's forces

Also Shimazu was even more important post-Sengoku Jidai than during it.

Events, not held territory.

Others:
Miyoshi Had some impact in the Onin Wars, but mostly pre-onin wars. They Also could have tried to conquer Shigoku and done so, but they wanted the more developed land of the mainland. Also not having them in is giving Chosokabe too much power.

Chosokabe The only real powerhouse in Shigoku after they pushed out the Miyoshi and Ichijo (the latter which will likely be removed for tag shortage). Not much else to say, but they can't be represented by anyone else.

Really don't know, I say scrap it and let Shigoku be a rebel ridden island in the hands of Ashikaga shogun.

Uesugi They were intially the threat to Hojo before they were defeated early on. They are also the only clan during this entire period to reform itself and revolt (though perhpas some others might have). This was a real shock. Once they reformed, they were a regional threat to Date, Asakura, Hojo and eventually Tokugowa and Oda, but not a major player.

:eek: Not a major player he says... do a little google search on Uesugi Kenshin :p

Asakura Asakura, as mentioned, did battle for supremacy as Shogun, but compared to others his battle was short lived. He did not do any major expansion (likely some, just nothing i've read about both online and from library books or articles). He is however the only major daimyo in the area, especially once the Ashikaga are destroyed.

Split lands between Ashikaga and Oda. The Oda will probably need some ahistorical early boost. Or... *idea forming*

Hokkaido See previous posts.

Ashikaga/Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugowa If I need to explain why Shogunates are important, please go to a library and read some books on Japanese history pre-Meiji Restoration era.

Idea for this whole mess:

I know next to nothing of the Onin war so you're alone on that. However, the Sengoku Jidai would probably be best modelles by releasing the following nations:
Shimazu, Otomo, Mori, Amako, Hojo, Takeda, Uesugi, Date

So that all of Japan except central Japan, Shigoku and Hokkaido. Give them no straits, so that the islands are isolated and give them high revoltrisk. Japan tag will then represent a sort of 'wastebucket' for the territory that played little to no role in this (Shigoku and Hokkaido, or Ezo, which ever floats your boat) and keep central Japan as a unified entity. You could then model the power struggles in these lands with localised events, and the rise of Oda Nobunaga to power as well. He is declared Shogun in 1573 (if memory serves) and deposes the last Ashikaga shogun then. This continuity could be reflected by monarch changes and events that change AI, sliders etc. and should probably be done to save tags. You really don't need an Oda tag because they were not a player before Nobunaga and he was immediately made Shogun (and thus Japan for all intents and purposes). The same goes for Toyotomi and Tokugawa. They are for all legal purposes Japan, and their opposition could even be an earlier tag recycled (though it will look ugly :(). Perhaps you could leave them out of the AI hitlists and cores and give them a dreadfully peaceful AI until 1550 or so so they will not perish.

If someone else conquers Japan, he will turn into Japan himself (ie. be declared Shogun) and get appropriate monarchs awakened, perhaps with a new more aggressive AI. Upside to the solution: less tags, reasonably accurate historical representation. Downside: HEINOUS amounts of monarchs for Japan :eek:, reasonably accurate historical representation and a moderate amount of event scripture.
 

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Eldin said:
Yamana/Hosokawa seems like a good idea, perhaps let Ouichi be RR.
Likely Amako will be left. Ouichi really was the player in the Onin Wars, especially later on. Eventually it would become more of Hosokawa vs. Ouichi instead of Hosokawa vs. Yamana.
Eldin said:
You will want the Shimazu, the Otomo to deliver counterweight, probably.
I would like to, but given other things... I do not like using rebels because that just requires tons of scripting and headaches and a nightmare to work with.
Eldin said:
Mori Motonari if I'm not mistaken :p otherwise you are right here, but if we drop Ouichi from Onin war, perhaps the Mori can have their territory (the Mori were not very big themselves at the beginning IIRC) and let their waivering allegiance on both sides be represented by high RR in several provinces?
See my first post. I will likely have some events to break them away and if so, bring them back some time later. Though not on a montly basis, that is unless i can also get a tag for Amako.
Eldin said:
You're forgetting Uesugi Kenshin. Takeda Shingen didn't really care about the Oda clan and the real rivalry for a better part of the late Sengoku Jidai was between Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin, with Mori on the side (he was just too far away). Oda Nobunaga didn't really enter the picture until all these men had died and their incompetent sons spoiled their gains. Hojo are nice to have though their richness and vast holdings should be offset by a totally incompetent war AI :p
Hojo will more be hindered by incompitent monarch stats. They'll start descent early game (they need to defeat Uesugi after all). The AI is already incompitent though. As to Oda, he did start conquest while they were alive, but their (not Oda) sons did spoil things, but of course things could change.
Eldin said:
You're totally forgetting the Uesugi :eek: They might not have been that major in the beginning, but they expanded greatly thereafter. Their powerbase was the north, and they were in constant struggle with the Takeda from Kai.
No I didn't. Yes they did hold some northern territory, but if you look at maps, it was Date, not Uesagi who had the territory in the far north, you know, the backwater areas of Japan.
Eldin said:
Hideyoshi was the blokes given name, his clan name is Toyotomi and I think Toyotomi Hideyoshi is really best represented as events in a unified Japan. Perhaps recycle an old tag to recycle Tokugawa's forces
Well...as said, he was still independant, just like Oda, under Tokugowa rule. Hideyoshi/Toytomi was far more agressive as well for expansion than Tokugowa.
Eldin said:
Really don't know, I say scrap it and let Shigoku be a rebel ridden island in the hands of Ashikaga shogun.
Well it would still need some kind of something there. There's no way getting around thi or we have infinate rebels, plus they were a legitimate clan and more powerful than other mainland ones.

Miyoshi could be implimented by events, but it also adds an early counterbalance to Chosobake.
Eldin said:
:eek: Not a major player he says... do a little google search on Uesugi Kenshin :p
Well he was a major player toward the end, like many of those were major players toward the beginning.
Eldin said:
Split lands between Ashikaga and Oda. The Oda will probably need some ahistorical early boost. Or... *idea forming*
The Oda will not be an inital selectable nation. Nor will Toyotomi or Tokugoawa. Yes they existed during this entire period, but they were quite small. I realy though need someplace for where Uesugi clan will revolt. Neither Date nor Ashikaga is good. Asakura was the best for this.
Eldin said:
Idea for this whole mess:

I know next to nothing of the Onin war so you're alone on that. However, the Sengoku Jidai would probably be best modelles by releasing the following nations:
Shimazu, Otomo, Mori, Amako, Hojo, Takeda, Uesugi, Date
As said Chosobake should stay in for Shigoku. They are considered a major clan definartly by the end of the Sengoku Jidai. Shigoku can be isolated (ie on an island with no strait) if you think that's best, but wars broke out there. Just not in Ezochi (as it was known then) really.They didn't play as much role. Also as said, Miyoshi came from there who in part led to the Onin war.
Eldin said:
So that all of Japan except central Japan, Shigoku and Hokkaido. Give them no straits, so that the islands are isolated and give them high revoltrisk. Japan tag will then represent a sort of 'wastebucket' for the territory that played little to no role in this (Shigoku and Hokkaido, or Ezo, which ever floats your boat) and keep central Japan as a unified entity. You could then model the power struggles in these lands with localised events, and the rise of Oda Nobunaga to power as well. He is declared Shogun in 1573 (if memory serves) and deposes the last Ashikaga shogun then. This continuity could be reflected by monarch changes and events that change AI, sliders etc. and should probably be done to save tags. You really don't need an Oda tag because they were not a player before Nobunaga and he was immediately made Shogun (and thus Japan for all intents and purposes). The same goes for Toyotomi and Tokugawa. They are for all legal purposes Japan, and their opposition could even be an earlier tag recycled (though it will look ugly :(). Perhaps you could leave them out of the AI hitlists and cores and give them a dreadfully peaceful AI until 1550 or so so they will not perish.

If someone else conquers Japan, he will turn into Japan himself (ie. be declared Shogun) and get appropriate monarchs awakened, perhaps with a new more aggressive AI. Upside to the solution: less tags, reasonably accurate historical representation. Downside: HEINOUS amounts of monarchs for Japan :eek:, reasonably accurate historical representation and a moderate amount of event scripture.
And you forget hideous RR no that stops people from playing.
 

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Only in Japan proper, but point taken.

Just a question on Toyotomi. You say the clan was still active under Tokugawa rule? To my knowledge it was completely wiped out. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was a commoner who managed to rise to be the unifier of Japan but his dynasty and clan died with his son, to my knowledge. As for the Oda, their role was minor after Tokugawa Ieyasu instated his shogunate, if not nil. I can at least not find any info on them after 1630. The majority of the clan died in the aftermath of Toyotomi's and Tokugawa's takeover of the country.

As for Shigoku, having it as an inactive power is the same as having it as rebel controlled country. As for central Japan, perhaps not have that as rebel ridden, just poored down so as not to overpower it? And an advice not to go after the islands because they are meant to be rebel controlled? Though that may make the government fall too easy... not easy :S
 

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Garbon said:
On another note of perspective, I think its worthy pointing out that modern day Germany and modern day Japan are roughly the same amount of space.
How many times does Japan fit in Russia? Geographic size doesn't justify tag excesses, especially in backward nations which had no impact on the world outside their country.
 

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almoravid said:
How many times does Japan fit in Russia? Geographic size doesn't justify tag excesses, especially in backward nations which had no impact on the world outside their country.

I don't think however, that its fair to speak of tag excesses when Paradox gave a region only one tag. Even the addition of tag, doubles tag use in the area. ;)

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about when you say "Russia"...are you talking simply the European side or the whole modern day country? We all know that talking about the latter would be foolish seeing as how large portions of the country was inhabited by tribes at this time.
 

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Eldin said:
Only in Japan proper, but point taken.

Just a question on Toyotomi. You say the clan was still active under Tokugawa rule? To my knowledge it was completely wiped out. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was a commoner who managed to rise to be the unifier of Japan but his dynasty and clan died with his son, to my knowledge. As for the Oda, their role was minor after Tokugawa Ieyasu instated his shogunate, if not nil. I can at least not find any info on them after 1630. The majority of the clan died in the aftermath of Toyotomi's and Tokugawa's takeover of the country.

As for Shigoku, having it as an inactive power is the same as having it as rebel controlled country. As for central Japan, perhaps not have that as rebel ridden, just poored down so as not to overpower it? And an advice not to go after the islands because they are meant to be rebel controlled? Though that may make the government fall too easy... not easy :S
Well again that isn't viable. Too many events to script and too many back-up events to script. Hokkaido is okay, but more than that and it'll take a nightmare of events, resources, etc. Sure it'll save a tag, but at what cost?
Eldin said:
Though I disagree with Almoravid out of wish to play a nice Sengoku Jidai, he brings up a valid point :eek:o
It's not quite as backwater and isolationist as commonly accepted view.
Eldin said:
And the seventh "major" daimyo in this game is Imagawa.
Imagawa was destroyed by Hojo almost right from the start. They also played no major role in the Onin War.

However they would fill the "big hole" in central Japan.