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Mad King James

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I think we need to iron out three things:

1: How many tags are we going to use here? To figure this out, let's first of all list all the clans that are powerful enough to be represented on the map, figure out the relative importance of each and if they can and should be abstracted into other clans or not based on their relative importance and power throughout the entire era.

2: How do we want the period to be portrayed? Do we want a "hands off" approach (where we just give everyone cores and AI hitlists against everyone else and let them go at it until only one is left) or a more "hands on" approach, where we try to guide events towards final victory by the Tokugawa.

3: Does the province setup need to be changed at all to accomodate either point 1 or 2?
 
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Eldin

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Toronaga? Never heard of them. I think you're trying to say Tokugawa :p

What is it with misspellings for Japanese names these days?
 

Mad King James

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Fixed, been a long day...
I was reading Shogun again the other day, that's why.
 

Eldin

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And to answer your question, I myself would enjoy a hands off approach, with relevant generals added. Keep things low on events and determinism. Japan at the time was a sodding mess and things could have gone way differently than they have historically. Add to that the fact that Japan had little intervention with the outside world during the EU period, a different leadership would not make too much difference. Some late game events concerning Tokugawa shogun would have to be scrapped I suppose, but otherwise, I would really enjoy a sort of Independent Europe approach to this. Because that is what it really was. A free for all, eventually won by the Matsudaira clan (turned Tokugawa) through Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

I know most will probably want to model that specific unification, but as said, I do hope we go for a hands off approach even though it will in the end give lots of ahistoric results. Due to their confinement to just Japan, it's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make.
 

doktarr

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Eldin said:
I know most will probably want to model that specific unification, but as said, I do hope we go for a hands off approach even though it will in the end give lots of ahistoric results. Due to their confinement to just Japan, it's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to make.
I agree. Too many events could make what should feel like a chaotic and uncertain period, feel like a part in a scripted play. We're just going to give the winner the NIP tag, anyway.

That said,

- we can script historical leaders, and some events,

- the historical outcome should be the most likely (but in this case, 40% would be more than likely enough for my taste, as long as SOMEBODY wins within 20 years of the historical date most of the time).

- the consequences for Japan should be a little different for different winners (as they are in Vanilla).
 

Mad King James

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doktarr said:
- the consequences for Japan should be a little different for different winners (as they are in Vanilla).

I think this can be modelled pretty simply just by giving the different clans different DP settings, and the occasional colonialist AIs (if they were a very outward looking clan).
 

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As interesting as I would find being able to actually play out the Tokugawa period, I do hope that we consider the fact that, ultimately, the shoguns and shogunates in the Tokugawa period had almost no impact on the world outside of Japan, and the end result could be just as easily represented by events. Therefore, if this would require so many tags as to hurt other regions in the game in a way that would make the game less representative of history as a whole, it should be done by events instead of the (admittedly more interesting) method of breaking Japan into multiple countries.

However, if this won't do any real damage to the game via tag usage, I look forward to playing as Hojo or Takeda.
 

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Mad King James said:
2: How do we want the period to be portrayed? Do we want a "hands off" approach (where we just give everyone cores and AI hitlists against everyone else and let them go at it until only one is left) or a more "hands on" approach, where we try to guide events towards final victory by the Tokugawa.
I would prefer just using the AI hitlists and not giving cores. That way the remaining clans will tend to fight the one who is biggest. Then when someone manages to unify Japan have the unification event reduce badboy by 10-15 or so.

EDIT: ohh... and grant the cores on Japan.
 
Last edited:

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I prefer less event driven, but at the same time, atleast to start it off and end it, there will need to be an event sequence of some sort since we'd have to release vassals afterword or something. Japan should not be monolith after this, but still feudalistic in a manner, but closer to most of Europe in 1419 as opposed to fedual europe.

Also there will need to be a few events, FE movement of Miyoshi's capital, impact of Cathlosim (or lack thereof) on Japan, etc. The wars itself will be generally left to be, though i still prefer making it harder for humans who would overrun this too quickly othewise.

Cores themseleves will not be granted extra except in extreme circumstances. CBs will be however.

Daimyo:
Kyushu:
Otomo
Shimazu

Shigoku:
Chosokabe
Ichijo
Miyoshi (will move over to mainland...will have to do this atleast via events)

Kansai:
Amako
Mori (vassal of Amako and Ouichi for gameplay reasons)
Ouichi

Kantou (Central) Region:
Asakura
Ashikaga (will die every time)
Hosakowa
Hojo
Imegawa
Takeda
Uesugi (can revolt, but not in intial setup provinces)
Yamana

Tohoku:
????
Date

Ezochi:
Hokkaido (unplayable)

Others (appearing later):
Oda
Toyotomi
Tokugowa
Hideyoshi

Red These I can probably drop if need be. IE, they would be the first to go if there is a major tag shortage.
Orange Secondary removal
Yellow Can be removed if specific hard-to-otherwise-represent circumstances can be met elsewise.
 
Last edited:

Mad King James

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Shouldn't Hokkaido be empty and colonizable?
Also, some of those tags may have to be recycled and aggregated.
 

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Mad King James said:
Shouldn't Hokkaido be empty and colonizable?
Also, some of those tags may have to be recycled and aggregated.
Hokkaido was just as independant as any other Daimyo. However, unlike others, it wasn't the same.

  • Hokkaido was japanese, but its province culture is ainu.
  • Religion of province is pagan, but the religion of government was buddhist or confuscian.
  • Popopulation at 1820 would be about 1000 or so in EU2 terms for Japanese population
  • It wasn't a colonizated nation in the same way America was colonized or even SEA was colonized by Chinese. The people moving here were immediatly a part of rule under Hokkaido daimyo, not the direct rule of the shogunate.
Leaving it vacant only invites exploitation and vastly aborations to colonization. Giving it to Ashikaga or Date isn't as bad, but Hokkaido was the nly japanese daimyo to not participate in the Sengoku Jidai. Also this would require unhistorical changes to Date or Ashikaga to prvent them from changing religion/culture of the province.

Making sure resources can't be used is one thing. That can be done with RR. Making sure its not participating in war then is another. Players and AI will seige it just for warscore. Also making sure conversions don't happen as well is much harder if we don't screw up Date (the most likely of choice to get them).

As to tag recycling, Toyotomi -> Tokugowa is one that could be done quite somewhat easily or just drop Toyotomi (!!! I know). All of these are clan names and using another clan name for someone else wouldn't be right.
 

almoravid

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More then 20 tags for Japan? Is it just me, or do other people also think it's far too much?! Damn me, I'd love to have Mingrelia, Guria, Svaneti and Ajara in Georgia or Yaroslavl, Suzdal, Smolensk revolter, Yuri's estate in Muscovy, Lzhedmitry's and Pugachev's 'states', yet I don't even propose it for I have some decency! For example, would it be awful if Oda, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa are being one and the same tag? I mean, ducal prussia and Frederik III.'s Prussia share the same tag, there is no tag for United Kingdom or Poland-Lithuania. There are so many places in the world where tags are needed that I think it would be a crime to waste so many on Japan
 

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Mad King James said:
Shouldn't Hokkaido be empty and colonizable?

The status of Hokkaido would actually be fairly confusing at game start. By the beginning of the Edo period we can definitely say that it is a Japanese possession (the Matsumae Han). At game start there are Japanese settlements in the southern part of the island which trade with the Ainu, but the largest part of the island is controlled by the Ainu. The Ainu themselves don't meet the general requirements for inclusion as a state any more than does any other native tribal society (if the Ainu get a tag, does every disorganized tribal society?--say the upper Amazon jungle tribes?). Possibly the best thing would be to have Hokkaido start as a maxed-out trading post; the main issue there would be deciding which home island daimyo gets to own it.
 

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Pablo Sanchez said:
The status of Hokkaido would actually be fairly confusing at game start. By the beginning of the Edo period we can definitely say that it is a Japanese possession (the Matsumae Han). At game start there are Japanese settlements in the southern part of the island which trade with the Ainu, but the largest part of the island is controlled by the Ainu. The Ainu themselves don't meet the general requirements for inclusion as a state any more than does any other native tribal society (if the Ainu get a tag, does every disorganized tribal society?--say the upper Amazon jungle tribes?). Possibly the best thing would be to have Hokkaido start as a maxed-out trading post; the main issue there would be deciding which home island daimyo gets to own it.
As i said it would likely be Date simply for logistics. The problem is:
  1. It can be destroyed
  2. If #1, it could be taken by say China, who had no interest in the area.
  3. It allows the province to unhistorically become japanese and non-pagan
  4. It will almost certainly be burned during the Sengoku Jidai
The upside:
  1. 1 less tag
  2. Better representation overall
  3. Doesn't allow you to raise troops or whatnot intially

Also Asakura could be dropped if i could figure out how to divide their area up. They did not do much of importance in the period, but they were the only major clan in the area for the entire era.
 

Eldin

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I don't really see why we need THAT many. Japan tag could suffice for the Ashikaga shogunate (and Ezochi) and to be inherited by event ere the end. As for other clans, you may want to sacrifice some historicality to have at least the bigger clans of the later feudal era. The early feudal era was too much of a mess with powerful lords being destroyed and smaller lords rising to great power to really base a setup of. Perhaps have a few of the daimyo represented as rebels within a faction for the first 20 years or so? With current province setup for Japan (which I say we keep), this would give lots of rebel provinces changing hands (ie. shifting loyalty) to show the fluid nature of the early period.

I really don't know what you have planned though. I must honestly say that I do not know almost half of the revolters Jinnai proposed and my grasp of the Sengoku Jidai is reasonable. I'd vote to not let the amount of tags given away to exceed 10 at the most, it seems like a reasonable number to me.
 

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Jinnai said:
Also Asakura could be dropped if i could figure out how to divide their area up. They did not do much of importance in the period, but they were the only major clan in the area for the entire era.

Also, did the Asakura not battle for supremacy with Oda Nobunaga in support of the Shogun? Perhaps give their land to the Ashikaga Shogun.
 

unmerged(2456)

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Eldin said:
I really don't know what you have planned though. I must honestly say that I do not know almost half of the revolters Jinnai proposed and my grasp of the Sengoku Jidai is reasonable. I'd vote to not let the amount of tags given away to exceed 10 at the most, it seems like a reasonable number to me.
Hosakowa and Yamana are not major in Sengoku Jidai, but are in the Onin war which predates it.

Ichijo is the daimyo lord over Miyoshi Chosokabe until the latter becomes powerful enough to overturn them and the former moves to the mainland and becomes independant of them. Ichijo could however be dropped in light of lack of tags since its importance is negliable.