MyMAP or New Map: New country list

[Shadowstrike]

A few more suggestions for the "if we have extra tags" group:

Central Africa:

Luanda
Luba
Bunyoro
Buganda

West Africa can use a bunch of tags overall, or some skillful renaming of earlier tags. It would be nice to see both a Macina and a Bambara nation, simply to represent the Fulani/Bambara divide. Ka'arta might also be useful, although they don't pop up until the 1700s.

 

[Garbon]

A few more suggestions for the "if we have extra tags" group:

Central Africa:

Luanda
Luba
Bunyoro
Buganda

West Africa can use a bunch of tags overall, or some skillful renaming of earlier tags. It would be nice to see both a Macina and a Bambara nation, simply to represent the Fulani/Bambara divide. Ka'arta might also be useful, although they don't pop up until the 1700s.

I'd ax the suggestion of Luanda and posit Ndongo as a should be added nation.

Without Lunda, it doesn't really make sense to include Luba, and I haven't been really able to get a sense of whether the two "empires/kingdoms" were more worthy of statehood than various North American states.

I'm against any of the Lake Victoria kingdoms as I don't see how adding largely isolated nations would make the game any more fun. As we would never have enough tags to do the region right, I say leave 'em out.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I had also requested Luchu long ago, before MKJ even started on his map.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

If we want to even consider a vote, someone should prepare a voting guide. Each proposed tag should have a brief (<50 word) historical summary, expected timeframe when the tag would or could be active, and what provinces the tag would get/have cores on. Then the voting could be at least somewhat informed.

Or provide at least one source (URL or book) for the tag. Everyone interested can look that up.

Even with all that info, it would be hard for me to vote. A lot of what would determine which tags I would support would be nitty-gritty implementation details. Like the Indonesian evens I reference above.

I think the main reason to vote for a tag ought to be it's relative importance in history compared to others.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Or provide at least one source (URL or book) for the tag. Everyone interested can look that up.

Sometimes it can be impossible to find one in english.

I think the main reason to vote for a tag ought to be it's relative importance in history compared to others.

As mentioned before by MKJ the relative importance of any one particular tag over another at this point is, for the most part, marginal. Sure a few stand out, but most of them are already in the reserved categrory or definatly going in category.

 

[niceta]

So
What do you suggest?

 

[unmerged(18425)]

As mentioned before by MKJ the relative importance of any one particular tag over another at this point is, for the most part, marginal. Sure a few stand out, but most of them are already in the reserved categrory or definatly going in category.

If the importance of one over another is marginal, you can as well let the plebs decide per vote.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Actually i think it should be regionally based by continents or major ares as a whole. Otherwise we could get results that would make no sense for implimentation.

But i also think 20 free tags is a bit too much. 5 is more than enough.

 

[almoravid]

Why is Ostfriesland a 'definitely add'? It's not that it was more important then having proper Hesse-Darmstadt and Hesse-Kassel. I also would like to line up Samtskhe to the possibly-add-list. As to Kartli, I'd rather axe Abkhazia then have to use the Georgia tag for it. In fact, I think that if we have Samtskhe given to Kartli, Imereti probably will have to be owning Abkhazia, just to balance the two kingdoms.

 

[Shadowstrike]

I've been reading up on west African history, and I thought it'd be a good opportunity to chalk a few more on the "if we have tags" list:

Southern Nigeria:

Igala
Nupe
Jukun
Borgu

Hausaland:

Gobir
Kano
Katsina
Zaria
Daura
Zamfara

West Africa:

Tekrur
Wolof
Futa Toro/Jallon
Kaabu

I've not done a lot of research into these nations, but I thought I'd throw up some names. Cursory Googling is giving me precious little information. Still, the addition of small nations would reflect a more accurate picture of West Africa as a region divided into small polities between phases of unification. The Congo region could use a bunch of nations as well.

 

[Garbon]

Nupe

I had forgot about how I've always wanted to add this, but didn't want to weaken Hausa on the vanilla map

Hausaland:

Gobir
Kano
Katsina
Zaria
Daura
Zamfara

I think for tag purposes the idea has been to simulate them all with a decentralized Hausa tag. Its ugly, but in all likelihood, its the best we are going to get.

Tekrur
Wolof
Futa Toro/Jallon

I've never been a fan of adding these nations, although I can't remember why. I'll have to look through the old threads as I did have a reason.

Kaabu

I've never been able to figure out exactly where this nation would be located. In any case, I don't think it is worth adding as the only history I've ever seen, marks its one significance as being a state that broke off from Mali near the coast. Nothing about anything that it did.


In regards to many nations around Kongo, I think that some of them could be considered borderline "EU2 states". Because of the tag crunch, I think it'd be best just to have Kongo and Ndongo.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Why is Ostfriesland a 'definitely add'? It's not that it was more important then having proper Hesse-Darmstadt and Hesse-Kassel.

AFAIK Twoflower consider Ostfriesland not necessary.

So, what should be done? A poll or a few? Voting for one state out of 20 will not be very descriptive. Perhaps better to vote for areas, like Inner Maghreb, Africas Great lakes, Madagascar etc.
IMO the new map depends to some extent on what the tags are being used. Some areas deserve better detail, or inclusion, based on if they get the states modelled by tags or not.

 

[Twoflower]

AFAIK Twoflower consider Ostfriesland not necessary.

Ostfriesland was a definitively add on Mymap because Mymap has an Ostfriesland province and the province cannot reasonably be given to anybody else than an independent Ostfriesland after 1464. Keeping it in possession of Friesland would mean that it becomes part of the Netherlands and that the Netherlands would get an evidently wrong border with the HRE, giving it to Oldenburg would dramatically exaggerate the size and importance of the quite tiny County of Oldenburg. The only somewhat meaningful use for this province would be having it represent the northern part of the Prince Bishopric of Münster, the Niederstift (Münster was divided into the Oberstift in the south and the Niederstift in the north which had a different political constitution until 1666 and a different fate after secularisation, with the Oberstift becoming Prussian and the Niederstift being divided between Hanover, Oldenburg and the duke of Arenberg), thereby making Münster a two-provincer; that isn't really possible as long as the province is called Ostfriesland.
Hence, a province called Ostfriesland would require a tag. The best solution however is not to give it a tag but to have no Ostfriesland province, either by removing or by renaming the province.

 

[Sute]{h]

So, what should be done? A poll or a few? Voting for one state out of 20 will not be very descriptive. Perhaps better to vote for areas, like Inner Maghreb, Africas Great lakes, Madagascar etc.
IMO the new map depends to some extent on what the tags are being used. Some areas deserve better detail, or inclusion, based on if they get the states modelled by tags or not.

I for one am against a poll. A poll would just be a which country is most popular test, and it would be the course of much resentment if the results of the poll wasn't followed. I much prefer the good argument to majority rule. It is better to create a list of requirements that a country must meet to qualify for a tag. Then it is just a matter of making the requirements hard enough that the number of countries that qualify is below the total number of tags.

 

[Garbon]

It is better to create a list of requirements that a country must meet to qualify for a tag. Then it is just a matter of making the requirements hard enough that the number of countries that qualify is below the total number of tags.

Not going to happen, in the sense that the only requirements you could add (like didn't have significant contact with Europeans) are going to kick out RoTW nations which isn't really a balance way of attacking the problem.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Not going to happen, in the sense that the only requirements you could add (like didn't have significant contact with Europeans) are going to kick out RoTW nations which isn't really a balance way of attacking the problem.

The only real requirement beyond the base funcitional level of goverment the game can attempt to simulate (ie a level beyond tribal) would be contact with any other nations, which is why Hawaii isn't being considered.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I agree with Jinnai, and other arguements are also possible to use.

Adding to Jinnai's example, we should require some interference with more than one neighbouring country, and not just an occasional ambassador being sent. We should remember that the added nations will interfere on at least a regional scale in wars and alliances, since that is how the engine works. If the nation in question never did that, we would inflate it's importance hugely, and a more accurate modelling would be a strong native population.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

I agree with Jinnai, and other arguements are also possible to use.

Adding to Jinnai's example, we should require some interference with more than one neighbouring country, and not just an occasional ambassador being sent. We should remember that the added nations will interfere on at least a regional scale in wars and alliances, since that is how the engine works. If the nation in question never did that, we would inflate it's importance hugely, and a more accurate modelling would be a strong native population.

I agree too.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

I agree with Jinnai, and other arguements are also possible to use.

Adding to Jinnai's example, we should require some interference with more than one neighbouring country, and not just an occasional ambassador being sent. We should remember that the added nations will interfere on at least a regional scale in wars and alliances, since that is how the engine works. If the nation in question never did that, we would inflate it's importance hugely, and a more accurate modelling would be a strong native population.

Sounds good.

 

[unmerged(17856)]

Ribbon's outstanding work on the WotR should convince you

Yes...holidays my friend...must work on...AGCEEP...must...finish...outstanding projects!