FAL said:
It's looking more like a 13-15 tag Japan, and 6 of those are already reserved anyways.
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It's looking more like a 13-15 tag Japan, and 6 of those are already reserved anyways.
Mad King James said:
Well, it looks less bad than I was afraid of, I admit that.
But still, 9 tags that could be used for new countries instead of factions in the civil war of an isolated nation?
I still doubt how you can justify those tags for Japan as being better for a mod that wants to represent the world as a whole.
FAL said:
Well actually we've pretty much modelled all the "desperate need" areas, so those tags wouldn't really go anywhere more interesting, unless you consider Fezzan or Darfur more deserving.
Mad King James said:
That's why I am curious about the list.
As a matter of principle I am quite objected to give one nation so many tags as Japan will get, but I want to know how furious my objectives are
Hence, a list of countries that aren't represented because of a tag shortage would be nice.
It will help the discussion a lot.
Choosing between Darfur and a Japanese faction is a no-brainer for me. Same with Zeta. I am sure there are more.
They're actually quite similar. Darfur and Fezzan were both briefly
"independent" but spent most of their existance as client states to larger regional powers, and could just as easily be an event. Darfur at least was fully independent for about a century.
The Sengoku Jidai Daimyos are actually more deserving not because of their relative importance, but because they cannot so easily be abstracted away. In fact they are remarkably well suited for the EU2 game engine of rampant annexation, random warfare, opportunism and disposable alliances. More so than anywhere else in the world.
"independent" but spent most of their existance as client states to larger regional powers, and could just as easily be an event. Darfur at least was fully independent for about a century.
The Sengoku Jidai Daimyos are actually more deserving not because of their relative importance, but because they cannot so easily be abstracted away. In fact they are remarkably well suited for the EU2 game engine of rampant annexation, random warfare, opportunism and disposable alliances. More so than anywhere else in the world.
Mad King James said:
So, they get tags because it's the easy way out?
I know Japan has a nice history of rampant warfare and I like to play Shogun myself, and if Sengoku Jidai was simulated realistic in EU2, Japan will be a hell of fun to play. I would play them myself.
I know all of this.
Yet, there are countries which are more important who deserve tags too. Darfur would be a factor in the entire EU2 timeframe, which is always preferable over a faction in an intern civil war.
Egypt, the Mameluks, the Ottomans and even the Napoleonic wars would benefit from having a Darfur in the game.
Anyway, a list will be handy to decide on this matter better, would it not?
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Prioritized the list (IMHO anyways) and we actually do have room. So Japan has 8 tags (6 already reserved +2 more) and the "if we have tags" pool now has to pick priority for the remaining ~9 tags left.
Oooh ooh let's do a poll! Pollify the "if we have extra tags", but just put "extra daimyos" instead of listing them all.
Oooh ooh let's do a poll! Pollify the "if we have extra tags", but just put "extra daimyos" instead of listing them all.
A much needed update.
I like polls. But, I wonder if you get the desired result, or just a picture of how well our posters are familiar, and interested in, the history of places far away from the western world.Mad King James said:
Norrefeldt said:
The thing is, the remaining candidates are roughly equivalent in importance, so popularity is as good a way of picking as any.
And the remaining candidates are all extremely obscure countries, so any familiarity would mean at least someone would be interested in working on the country.
Mad King James said:
I'm confused by the question marks by some of the listed states but not others.
I too would echo the concern that a poll would only show us what states various members of the community know about. I'm also not sure what the ideal aim of a poll on the subject would be...its great if members of the community want to show what states they would like to see, but unless they are going to step up and do the work to include and balance said states, such knowledge isn't of great value.
EDIT: I just read the last bit about what the question marks stand for, and I'm quite uncertain about how you determined which ones need discussing and which ones don't.
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Actually as mentioned in the Africa thread but not given tags as I hadn't got around to it, 2 tags (one for the Dahomey region and one for Macina or Bambara) are necessary / been requested for the vanilla map. Macina/Bambara is of great importance as its impossible to represent any lands formerly held by Mali post-1650ish without one.
Also, I think that some sort of Tuareg tag is going to be needed for the provinces just north of Mali, who should conquer Timbuktu in 1433. It wouldn't make sense for their state to be named Timbuktu prior to taking the province.
Also, I think that some sort of Tuareg tag is going to be needed for the provinces just north of Mali, who should conquer Timbuktu in 1433. It wouldn't make sense for their state to be named Timbuktu prior to taking the province.
Come to think of it, I think if anything, we shouldn't approach this with a "we need to exhaust all our tags" mentality. Many of those states listed in the "possibles" category wouldn't add a great amount to the game (at least a majority of the African ones). It seems to me it'd be better to keep whatever remaining tags we have as open and continue the traditional process of giving out those few as they are asked for. Otherwise we run the risk of adding states like Touggourt before accounting for the fact that we still need at least one more tag for Persia unless we want an enternal Safavid Empire.
Garbon said:
Sutor ne ultra crepidam
Sorry if you don'w want the opinion of the crowd there's no reason to have a forum.
The opinions ARE GOOD 'cause are just Opinions: you can erase'em after you read'em
niceta said:
There's a difference between a crowd that says : I want this & this & not that and the community that would make an effort to add the proposed nations.
I'm also unsure about how that phrase is relevent to the rest of your post.
Garbon said:
Sure.
BUT I SUPPOSE that we are adult people... So try to create a poll.
If it starts with the crowd tell "i want this usw" close it and decide by yourself.
niceta said:
I'm not saying that I'd be upset if a poll was started, I just don't see one being particularly useful and more likely just a waste of time / a potential site for contention when member Z feels slighted because nation X wasn't added.
Also, as I'm drawing into question the dividing up of tags for the proposed possible nations, I'm not sure even what the poll options would be....and I don't think we can have a poll with over 20 choices.
HAM Ha Mi (twice in the list), MEA Meng Yang and LGD Lu Chuan are used in China Add-on. But we can always discuss about them.
A few sundry comments:
- I definitely agree we shouldn't hand out all tags right now. I'd suggest leaving at least a dozen tags unused. 20 would be better. There's a lot of uncertainty about what's going to be useful on this new map, and the first release should give us a lot a wiggle room.
When I say 20 tags, I'm including the "assigned but unused" tags in that count.
. - Just on Indonesia - I am fine with (fully support, in fact) adding a bunch more tags here. I just want to make sure that we leave a few uncolonized enclaves on the coasts here and there for the major settlements, and that the sultanates of Indonesia that fell fully under heavy European influence/control during the period are given some cleverly designed events for vassalage, maybe even giving up a province which then becomes a CoT. I don't want utterly ham-handed events, but some events for the interaction will be needed for the region to play out properly.
. - If we want to even consider a vote, someone should prepare a voting guide. Each proposed tag should have a brief (<50 word) historical summary, expected timeframe when the tag would or could be active, and what provinces the tag would get/have cores on. Then the voting could be at least somewhat informed.
. - Even with all that info, it would be hard for me to vote. A lot of what would determine which tags I would support would be nitty-gritty implementation details. Like the Indonesian evens I reference above.
. - Also, how would we vote/count votes? Ignoring for the moment how we would use the results. 30 points for first place vote, 29 for second, et cetera? Let people rate each possible tag use on a 1-100 scale of importance? Hare-STV proportional representation vote? Condorcet voting? I could go on...