MyMAP ( 400 new provinces)

[Herr Doctor]

I didnt know you speak polish
ok above link says that in mid 14 century gdansk and cracow were NOT smaller than 15000
also note that konigsberg in 1419 in mymap has 15000, i doubt it was as big as gdansk at that time
so Gdansk 20000 and raise Krakow to 16000 in 1419? (i cant remamber how populated is krakow on last version)

I do not speak Polish, I read Polish freely (well Belarusian is much the same + a lot of practice in Polish historical books ) – it makes the difference.
Yeah, I agree with your both statements: population of Krakow and Danzig should be raised, as well as Konigsberg lowered (I think 10.000 would be OK). Btw, Konigsberg as much as Berlin in the 15th century is the conglomerate of several smaller satellite towns, merged more or less only in the 17th century.

 

[Basileios I]

So what about the Romanians in Thessaly now?

Should we keep it or should it be changed to Greek? I favour the latter since the most of what is the Thessaly province on MyMap was inhabitated by Greeks at that time ...

 

[unmerged(57070)]

So what about the Romanians in Thessaly now?

Should we keep it or should it be changed to Greek? I favour the latter since the most of what is the Thessaly province on MyMap was inhabitated by Greeks at that time ...

I agree, it is silly to see Wallachia conquer Greece and have the right culture for it. If not for Greek make it another culture, namely Aromanian.

Also Lille should stay, for the reasons Herr Doctor said. Maybe Cambrai should be added to Hainaut. We don't have the bisophrics of Doornik and the county of Namur either, so there is no reason for the Cambrai province to stay. Although a very important peace treaty "de Damesvrede" was signed there between Francois I and Charles V, there is no other reason for it's further inclusion. It was added to his dominions by Charles V and that was the end of Cambrai or in my language Kamerijk.

 

[Herr Doctor]

I agree, it is silly to see Wallachia conquer Greece and have the right culture for it. If not for Greek make it another culture, namely Aromanian.

Also Lille should stay, for the reasons Herr Doctor said. Maybe Cambrai should be added to Hainaut. We don't have the bisophrics of Doornik and the county of Namur either, so there is no reason for the Cambrai province to stay. Although a very important peace treaty "de Damesvrede" was signed there between Francois I and Charles V, there is no other reason for it's further inclusion. It was added to his dominions by Charles V and that was the end of Cambrai or in my language Kamerijk.

Cambrai is for the same reasons as Lille: to represent historical border between France and Spanish (Austrian) Netherlands from 1668 to 1790s… If something needs to go is second unnatural province for Champagne IMO.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I agree, it is silly to see Wallachia conquer Greece and have the right culture for it. If not for Greek make it another culture, namely Aromanian.

Also Lille should stay, for the reasons Herr Doctor said. Maybe Cambrai should be added to Hainaut. We don't have the bisophrics of Doornik and the county of Namur either, so there is no reason for the Cambrai province to stay. Although a very important peace treaty "de Damesvrede" was signed there between Francois I and Charles V, there is no other reason for it's further inclusion. It was added to his dominions by Charles V and that was the end of Cambrai or in my language Kamerijk.

Wallachia, conquer Thessaly!? :rofl: :rofl:

What game are YOU playing!?!? Wallachia couldn't conquer it's way out of a wet paper bag. in 100% of my game they get annexed, either by Hungary, Poland or Bohemia.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Fictional? What's fictional about it? That's what it was called. Despot of Epirus was one of his titles, but the country itself was "the Principality of Cephallonia and Arta"

I didn't say Cephalonia did not exist as an island, but the country had a name already and Tocco received the title Despot of Epirus officially. This is like the British Queen using the title Countess of Falklands instead, because Epirus was the heartland of that small despotate in 1419 compared to a couple of barren islands.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Wallachia, conquer Thessaly!? :rofl: :rofl:

What game are YOU playing!?!? Wallachia couldn't conquer it's way out of a wet paper bag. in 100% of my game they get annexed, either by Hungary, Poland or Bohemia.

But in one game, I had Wallachia conquer Hungary.

 

[rybka]

I do not speak Polish, I read Polish freely (well Belarusian is much the same + a lot of practice in Polish historical books ) – it makes the difference.
Yeah, I agree with your both statements: population of Krakow and Danzig should be raised, as well as Konigsberg lowered (I think 10.000 would be OK). Btw, Konigsberg as much as Berlin in the 15th century is the conglomerate of several smaller satellite towns, merged more or less only in the 17th century.

ok i sent PM to Agung with these changes of population:
danzig - 20000
krakow - 16000
konigsberg (ostprussen) - 10000

 

[Garbon]

- Ghazi is a fictional state to represent Aydinoglu, Germiyan and Teke Beydoms (Principalities) combined (for the lack of tags). Ghazi should not have Kurdish as a state culture, but they should have Turkish and Greek, as Greeks and Turks lived side by side in peace for their duration.

FWIW, the rulers of Germiyan were of Kurdish origin. However, I know that you like to paint everyone who is muslim and speaks turkish with the Turkish brush, so I could understand if you removed the culture.

 

[Mad King James]

Cambrai is for the same reasons as Lille: to represent historical border between France and Spanish (Austrian) Netherlands from 1668 to 1790s… If something needs to go is second unnatural province for Champagne IMO.

I don't agree that France having correct borders for a century is the most important consideration. There are other considerations that have to be asessed.

For instance, you and I are completely divided over the importance of Venaissin (critical to me, useless to you) and Lille/Antwerp (critical to you, useless to me). People have complained about overlarge Champagne since we started this project, and to be honest it is true, it's too big for such a large and rich province with two major cities.

 

[Mad King James]

I didn't say Cephalonia did not exist as an island, but the country had a name already and Tocco received the title Despot of Epirus officially. This is like the British Queen using the title Countess of Falklands instead, because Epirus was the heartland of that small despotate in 1419 compared to a couple of barren islands.

If his primary title was Despot of Epirus, then why does he and all his descendants use "Prince of Cephallonia and Arta" in the Tocco family geneaology?

I don't think you realize how much research I have done on the Tocco's.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

But in one game, I had Wallachia conquer Hungary.

Really? It mustt have been under some amazing circumstances to be able to do that. What exactly happened because that never happens in my games. And what diffculty and aggresiveness settings did you use?

 

[Tunch Khan]

FWIW, the rulers of Germiyan were of Kurdish origin. However, I know that you like to paint everyone who is muslim and speaks turkish with the Turkish brush, so I could understand if you removed the culture.

- Germiyanoglu was not Kurdish in nature, but the founders were Turkish/Kurdish and they used Turkish in daily use.

- All the Germiyan town names (changed from Greek) were renamed to Turkish, there's not even one Kurdish town or neighborhood name.

- Kurds were not migrating to west at all. They were nomads local to Eastern Anatolia and west of Iran, while Turkmen settlers were flowing west on a very high rate.

- Germiyanoglu was the weakest of the mentioned three beydoms due to being landlocked, while Aydinoglu and Teke grow much stronger and became naval powers to counter Knights and Genoese pirates. Aydinoglu was a strong Byzantine ally and often campaigned against Balkan states from Serbia to Epirus.

So, if we are making up a Ghazi state, giving it a Kurdish culture is just wrong. I would not mind them having Greek as a culture, as they ruled over the Greeks and had extremely good relations with other Greek states.

 

[unmerged(57070)]

ok i sent PM to Agung with these changes of population:
danzig - 20000
krakow - 16000
konigsberg (ostprussen) - 10000

Don't forget Memel, where two million people lived at the beginning of the fifteenth century.

 

[Tunch Khan]

If his primary title was Despot of Epirus, then why does he and all his descendants use "Prince of Cephallonia and Arta" in the Tocco family geneaology?

I don't think you realize how much research I have done on the Tocco's.

It is perhaps those two lands were the last ones to be lost, or wait, maybe they sold the title to the Venetians as well. Afterall, they sold most of their lands when they realised they cannot keep them anymore. Selling titles was a very common thing back then.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Really? It mustt have been under some amazing circumstances to be able to do that. What exactly happened because that never happens in my games. And what diffculty and aggresiveness settings did you use?

I did not play actually, I was observing the game as Merceneries. I did not do anything at all. They were allied with the Ottomans and just grabbed 3/4 of Hungary and kept it for good.

 

[Herr Doctor]

I don't agree that France having correct borders for a century is the most important consideration. There are other considerations that have to be asessed.

For instance, you and I are completely divided over the importance of Venaissin (critical to me, useless to you) and Lille/Antwerp (critical to you, useless to me). People have complained about overlarge Champagne since we started this project, and to be honest it is true, it's too big for such a large and rich province with two major cities.

At last, even so I do not consider Avignon military important and thus not necessary as the separate province in EUII, there is a lot of historical reasons to add this one (so one could agree or not). But Champagne is absolutely other issue, which breaks all the project philosophy: before we tried to add only the provinces which had a strong historical sense; and now this two-provinces Champagne is absolutely out of these principles. IMO it is not so overly big: just compare it with Bas Languedoc or Burgundy or with dozens important rich provinces in Eastern-Central Europe (Poznan, Transylvania, Ukraine etc). In most cases AI France controls Champagne well enough and it is really a bad solution to make it possible, so part of Champagne (“Ardennes”, for example) will be under some German minor control or anything like this.

 

[Garbon]

- Germiyanoglu was the weakest of the mentioned three beydoms due to being landlocked, while Aydinoglu and Teke grow much stronger and became naval powers to counter Knights and Genoese pirates. Aydinoglu was a strong Byzantine ally and often campaigned against Balkan states from Serbia to Epirus.

And yet when the dust settled Germiyan lasted the longest, dying when its ruler willed it away to the Ottomans.

It is also hard to believe that Aydin, which had existed as an indepedent entity for 17 years at the start of the game was a powerful beydom. Aydin great days of power ended in 1390 when it was annexed by the Ottomans for the first time. Likewise with Teke.

Like I said though, removing the culture is fine. Their claim to it is tenuous.

 

[Mad King James]

It is perhaps those two lands were the last ones to be lost, or wait, maybe they sold the title to the Venetians as well. Afterall, they sold most of their lands when they realised they cannot keep them anymore. Selling titles was a very common thing back then.

They kept all their titles.
I don't know where you got your information that the Tocco's ever had the title "Despot of Epirus". They inherited the title prince of Arta (which is where they got modern Epirus) from their in-laws through marraige. The heir to the house administered Arta, and the Prince ruled from Argostoli.

 

[Tunch Khan]

They kept all their titles.
I don't know where you got your information that the Tocco's ever had the title "Despot of Epirus". They inherited the title prince of Arta (which is where they got modern Epirus) from their in-laws through marraige. The heir to the house administered Arta, and the Prince ruled from Argostoli.

I didn't make a through research honsetly, because wherever I looked, all the sources seemed to agree with eachoter that Tocchi were the Despots of Epirus at the time game starts. Hmm, let me see, Lord of Cephalonia or Despot of Epirus.... I think, I'd chose the despotate myself, as it was much older, larger, and noble as well as it had more prestige, as Epirus was one of the claimants of the Byzantine Empire during the Fourth Crusade.
Manuel Comnenus was the Emperor who granted Carlo I Tocco the title of Despot of Epirus when Carlo reunited Epirus under his rule. It wasn't until 1430 that he lost it to Ottomans, but that gives us enough time to establish the despotate. At least it was all legal.