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Van der Gent said:Christianity came before islam you know...
And what do you want to say with that?
Things to fix on BYZ for the update:
-add starting core/shield on "Smyrna" and remove starting core/shield on "Germanyia" (smyrna is on the coast.. germanyia is interior... should come after renessiance)
if you want to get into the fantasy event "begin the renessiance" for BYZ then:
-Remove the core/shield on Ardalan (its in Persia, beyond mesopotamia..unless this is intentional to always cause trouble between BYZ and Persia?)
-other tweeks could be made, like adding cores/shields to the Serbian provinces between Syrmia ((which BYZ does have a shield on)) and Constantinople (Machva, Rashka, and Zeta) ... or maybe its fine having cores on the northern most serbian province but not the closer ones? /shrug (same situation with Ragusa.. BYZ gets core on it but not the much closer province of Durazzo.. maybe switch them? would make more sense to have core on albanian/orthodox Durazzo which borders greek Epirus instead of croatian catholic Ragusa which is far to the north west of orthodox/greek lands)
(I will save my thoughts on the culture of the provinces of Asia Minor for the next post)
-add starting core/shield on "Smyrna" and remove starting core/shield on "Germanyia" (smyrna is on the coast.. germanyia is interior... should come after renessiance)
if you want to get into the fantasy event "begin the renessiance" for BYZ then:
-Remove the core/shield on Ardalan (its in Persia, beyond mesopotamia..unless this is intentional to always cause trouble between BYZ and Persia?)
-other tweeks could be made, like adding cores/shields to the Serbian provinces between Syrmia ((which BYZ does have a shield on)) and Constantinople (Machva, Rashka, and Zeta) ... or maybe its fine having cores on the northern most serbian province but not the closer ones? /shrug (same situation with Ragusa.. BYZ gets core on it but not the much closer province of Durazzo.. maybe switch them? would make more sense to have core on albanian/orthodox Durazzo which borders greek Epirus instead of croatian catholic Ragusa which is far to the north west of orthodox/greek lands)
(I will save my thoughts on the culture of the provinces of Asia Minor for the next post)
Cultures near Bosphorus
I need help understanding a few things as they relate to religion and culture in the provinces near Constantinople.
There are seven provinces in western Asia Minor currently:
Teke
Anatolia
Menteshe
Bursa
Saruhan
Germiyan
Smyrna
The first three are Sunni, the last four are Orthodox. How is it (and the same was true in original EU2 from paradox) that most of the provinces in western Asia Minor are Orthodox, but ALL of them are listed as Turkish culture?
Now we go to the other side of Constantinople and we see Thrace is greek culture yet sunni religion..and then Varna is macedonian culture and sunni religion.
So what is going on here? Mass conversian of Turks to Orthodoxy in Western Asia minor? Considering that even in the "sunni" provinces of thrace and varna.. the local cultures are still intact... then how much more so in the west Asia Minor provines that are still Orthodox?
Now I'm sure Tunch will continue to suggest we just make those provinces (in west Asia Minor) sunni too..but we are trying to reflect the map of Asia Minor 500 years ago.. not after 1922.
The fact is there WAS still a very sizeable population of Greeks and Orthodox peoples in Asia Minor during this period, and now that we have provinces representing the "costal strips and towns" that even Tunch has said in several posts where shunned by the ethnic turks and populated by greeks.. shouldnt we have those costal provinces greek culture and thus give SOME representation to the large population of greeks still living in west Asia Minor during that time? Having a nice detailed map representing lowlands, costal towns, interior heartlands, etc of Asia Minor and having ONE cultural greek territory (trebizond) is a farce.
I propose:
-Smyrna province = greek culture/orthodox religion
-Saruhan province = greek culture/orthodox religion
-Menteshe province = greek culture/sunni religion
-Bursa province =turkish culture/sunni religion
-Germiyan province = turkish culture/sunni religion
-Silifke province = turkish culture/orthodox religion (since Tunch is positive these greeks remained orthodox but abandoned their greek culture/language for turkish 500 years ago? If so, then at least change that costal town province strip to Orthodox)
(I feel the above changes to west Asia Minor culture/religion would more acuratly reflect the realities of the time that the costal towns/areas where still very much Orthodox/greek and the interior was turkish/muslim. Tunch, you agree these narrow provinces bordering the sea was populated with greek filled coastal towns/villages right, as per your other posts on the subject? I hope you agree, since you seem knowledgeable on the subject, that this compromise would better refelect the demographics of the region 500 years ago))
A few things i'd like to be explained to me if someone could:
-Why is Thrace sunni religion? What does it matter if the overlords who had their capital there where sunni? They where in west asia minor far longer and those provinces are still Orthodox. (same question for Varna)
-Why is Kilikia orthodox religion but turkish culture? If this was old armenian/syrian territory, and still enough so to be orthodox... why turkish and not syrian or armenian?
I need help understanding a few things as they relate to religion and culture in the provinces near Constantinople.
There are seven provinces in western Asia Minor currently:
Teke
Anatolia
Menteshe
Bursa
Saruhan
Germiyan
Smyrna
The first three are Sunni, the last four are Orthodox. How is it (and the same was true in original EU2 from paradox) that most of the provinces in western Asia Minor are Orthodox, but ALL of them are listed as Turkish culture?
Now we go to the other side of Constantinople and we see Thrace is greek culture yet sunni religion..and then Varna is macedonian culture and sunni religion.
So what is going on here? Mass conversian of Turks to Orthodoxy in Western Asia minor? Considering that even in the "sunni" provinces of thrace and varna.. the local cultures are still intact... then how much more so in the west Asia Minor provines that are still Orthodox?
Now I'm sure Tunch will continue to suggest we just make those provinces (in west Asia Minor) sunni too..but we are trying to reflect the map of Asia Minor 500 years ago.. not after 1922.
The fact is there WAS still a very sizeable population of Greeks and Orthodox peoples in Asia Minor during this period, and now that we have provinces representing the "costal strips and towns" that even Tunch has said in several posts where shunned by the ethnic turks and populated by greeks.. shouldnt we have those costal provinces greek culture and thus give SOME representation to the large population of greeks still living in west Asia Minor during that time? Having a nice detailed map representing lowlands, costal towns, interior heartlands, etc of Asia Minor and having ONE cultural greek territory (trebizond) is a farce.
I propose:
-Smyrna province = greek culture/orthodox religion
-Saruhan province = greek culture/orthodox religion
-Menteshe province = greek culture/sunni religion
-Bursa province =turkish culture/sunni religion
-Germiyan province = turkish culture/sunni religion
-Silifke province = turkish culture/orthodox religion (since Tunch is positive these greeks remained orthodox but abandoned their greek culture/language for turkish 500 years ago? If so, then at least change that costal town province strip to Orthodox)
(I feel the above changes to west Asia Minor culture/religion would more acuratly reflect the realities of the time that the costal towns/areas where still very much Orthodox/greek and the interior was turkish/muslim. Tunch, you agree these narrow provinces bordering the sea was populated with greek filled coastal towns/villages right, as per your other posts on the subject? I hope you agree, since you seem knowledgeable on the subject, that this compromise would better refelect the demographics of the region 500 years ago))
A few things i'd like to be explained to me if someone could:
-Why is Thrace sunni religion? What does it matter if the overlords who had their capital there where sunni? They where in west asia minor far longer and those provinces are still Orthodox. (same question for Varna)
-Why is Kilikia orthodox religion but turkish culture? If this was old armenian/syrian territory, and still enough so to be orthodox... why turkish and not syrian or armenian?
Pasha, i have a problem with another savegame again. Perhaps you can check it.
I sent it to your email adress.
Thanks!
I sent it to your email adress.
Thanks!
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You are making more sense now.Nicophorus said:I need help understanding a few things as they relate to religion and culture in the provinces near Constantinople.
There are seven provinces in western Asia Minor currently:
Teke
Anatolia
Menteshe
Bursa
Saruhan
Germiyan
Smyrna
The first three are Sunni, the last four are Orthodox. How is it (and the same was true in original EU2 from paradox) that most of the provinces in western Asia Minor are Orthodox, but ALL of them are listed as Turkish culture?
Now we go to the other side of Constantinople and we see Thrace is greek culture yet sunni religion..and then Varna is macedonian culture and sunni religion.
So what is going on here? Mass conversian of Turks to Orthodoxy in Western Asia minor? Considering that even in the "sunni" provinces of thrace and varna.. the local cultures are still intact... then how much more so in the west Asia Minor provines that are still Orthodox?
Now I'm sure Tunch will continue to suggest we just make those provinces (in west Asia Minor) sunni too..but we are trying to reflect the map of Asia Minor 500 years ago.. not after 1922.
The fact is there WAS still a very sizeable population of Greeks and Orthodox peoples in Asia Minor during this period, and now that we have provinces representing the "costal strips and towns" that even Tunch has said in several posts where shunned by the ethnic turks and populated by greeks.. shouldnt we have those costal provinces greek culture and thus give SOME representation to the large population of greeks still living in west Asia Minor during that time? Having a nice detailed map representing lowlands, costal towns, interior heartlands, etc of Asia Minor and having ONE cultural greek territory (trebizond) is a farce.
I propose:
-Smyrna province = greek culture/orthodox religion
-Saruhan province = greek culture/orthodox religion
-Menteshe province = greek culture/sunni religion
-Bursa province =turkish culture/sunni religion
-Germiyan province = turkish culture/sunni religion
-Silifke province = turkish culture/orthodox religion (since Tunch is positive these greeks remained orthodox but abandoned their greek culture/language for turkish 500 years ago? If so, then at least change that costal town province strip to Orthodox)
(I feel the above changes to west Asia Minor culture/religion would more acuratly reflect the realities of the time that the costal towns/areas where still very much Orthodox/greek and the interior was turkish/muslim. Tunch, you agree these narrow provinces bordering the sea was populated with greek filled coastal towns/villages right, as per your other posts on the subject? I hope you agree, since you seem knowledgeable on the subject, that this compromise would better refelect the demographics of the region 500 years ago))
A few things i'd like to be explained to me if someone could:
-Why is Thrace sunni religion? What does it matter if the overlords who had their capital there where sunni? They where in west asia minor far longer and those provinces are still Orthodox. (same question for Varna)
-Why is Kilikia orthodox religion but turkish culture? If this was old armenian/syrian territory, and still enough so to be orthodox... why turkish and not syrian or armenian?
I would agree to most of your suggestions. But regarding Thrace, the Sultans had this habit of repopulating their newly conquered cities with Turks from Anatolia. Since Smyrna and Saruhan districts were not conquered but rather inherited from other Turkish beydoms, I don't remember a mass repopulation of those two provinces. But they were neverthless occupied by Turks for ages and should be investigated further.
I remember reading they also moved greeks and other christians around and into new cities (the Byzantines before them practiced this alot too, funny how nothing is new under the sun).. they imported many Asia Minor Greeks to help repopulate Constantinople and when they (turks) took over Trebizond they did the opposite and moved alot of the greeks out of Trebizond to Constantinople and Thrace.
But regarding the game provinces and the way religion (Islam at least) functions in that part of the world at that time period. I have never heard of large quantities of Turks being converted to Orthodoxy in those years, the Orthodox of the Ottoman Empire where Greeks, Slavs, etc.. yes there was the odd Turk who converted..ive seen their skulls/bones in various Monestaries in the Balkans with my own eyes, their heads cut off for their apostasy and made Orthodox Martyrs..but they are relativly few.
I just dont think (in 1419 at least) we can have Orthodox provinces in western asia minor or the balkans that are Turkish. The two just do NOT go together in that time period. (greek culture/sunni i can see, turk/sunni I can see..but not turk/orthodox)
Regarding the seacoast of Karaman, populated by orthodox greeks who in 1419 spoke turkish as their mother toungue? Are we sure? I was reading about the Muslim Greeks of Pontus (350,000 strong), and those people's grandfathers/grandmothers still speak Greek in modern day turkey (sure the newest generation are forgetting they where once greeks and only speak turkish..as happened im sure all over Asia Minor to a large extent over the years, it will be interesting when genetic testing becomes more common/widespread) ..but my point is.. if its taken this long for the MUSLIM pontus greeks to finaly become "turks" .... are we sure the christian orthodox greeks of south Asia Minor thought of themselves as "turks" in a cultural sense 500 years ago?
p.s. why is the Karaman Nation called Karamangolu (or something like that, turkish I assume)? I thought we where useing English names for the nations?
But regarding the game provinces and the way religion (Islam at least) functions in that part of the world at that time period. I have never heard of large quantities of Turks being converted to Orthodoxy in those years, the Orthodox of the Ottoman Empire where Greeks, Slavs, etc.. yes there was the odd Turk who converted..ive seen their skulls/bones in various Monestaries in the Balkans with my own eyes, their heads cut off for their apostasy and made Orthodox Martyrs..but they are relativly few.
I just dont think (in 1419 at least) we can have Orthodox provinces in western asia minor or the balkans that are Turkish. The two just do NOT go together in that time period. (greek culture/sunni i can see, turk/sunni I can see..but not turk/orthodox)
Regarding the seacoast of Karaman, populated by orthodox greeks who in 1419 spoke turkish as their mother toungue? Are we sure? I was reading about the Muslim Greeks of Pontus (350,000 strong), and those people's grandfathers/grandmothers still speak Greek in modern day turkey (sure the newest generation are forgetting they where once greeks and only speak turkish..as happened im sure all over Asia Minor to a large extent over the years, it will be interesting when genetic testing becomes more common/widespread) ..but my point is.. if its taken this long for the MUSLIM pontus greeks to finaly become "turks" .... are we sure the christian orthodox greeks of south Asia Minor thought of themselves as "turks" in a cultural sense 500 years ago?
p.s. why is the Karaman Nation called Karamangolu (or something like that, turkish I assume)? I thought we where useing English names for the nations?
beregic said:thanks pasha, i thought of that problem
however, i do have a very fast comp + no aplications in backround
how can i fix the jan7 ctd ( i tried 6 times on low speed ) and keeps happening. should i edit some wars ?
also i noticed this:
-the previous "mymap" was running somehow with intreruptions but i could do 400 years wit 1-2 ctds
- this versions crashes randomlly every few years, sometimes every year on my comp
but check this: i played atzeks and within a few years i annexed everything around; and guess what...it runs smoothlly on extreamlly high speed.
also played granada and annexed portugal....same situation
but as ottos is just bad chemestry i think, grrrrrrr
I have been trying to track down a similar problem with a modified version of mymap 15.1 with similar results in that I get no problems until the late 1400's then I start getting random crashes. Game speed has no impact and saving more often just results in save games that crash with in a day or two upon being loaded. Once the crashes start they don't stop and they seem random.
I removed all the events except the ones for China so there may be a bug in the china events - I don't know. I made sure every country had a monarch (not just an empty file) and this seemed to help a little. On one save game file I removed all the wars and the game ran for a while longer then started crashing again.
At this point I suspect a problem with the ALBA cheat to supress revolts. I normally play with the cheat on. I noticed that if I turn the cheat off then the crashes seem to happen less and save games that almost immediately crash keep going. This may just be a fluke - I need to do more testing but I would be interested to know if you use the alba cheat.
Edit - I also just noticed that I had one country in my own setup in the Americas with two capitals (I did not know this could cause a CTD) so maybe this was causing some of the problems. but I still wonder if the ALBA cheat causes problems after a while.
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17blue17 said:
you are definatelly onto something! whenever i get fairlly big i use "alba" but only becouse i am lazy to deal with every revolt! however i pause , type "alba", f12 again then unpuase again with revolts on ( i manlly use alba for unhapiness since they give a LOT of revolts, just annoying)
what i mean i never play with "alba", but i do start using it in late 1400's since i do tend to get fairlly big. again i do not play with "alba" except when on pause or , rarelly , when get a huge rr due to some event. i do not use it for wars since my wars are always short and calculated
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472 1171 1174 1289 1290 1335 1379 1402 1404 1441 1445 1446 1449 1451 1452 1739 259
this is how standard European nation known provinces look like. I also spotted Lolland as Terra Incognita, added it, and this thing should work - try it
472 1171 1174 1289 1290 1335 1379 1402 1404 1441 1445 1446 1449 1451 1452 1739 259
this is how standard European nation known provinces look like. I also spotted Lolland as Terra Incognita, added it, and this thing should work - try it
17blue17 said:
k i played viligajara for about 30 years . NO CRASH and did not use "alba" at all; will test it further tommorow. and i played on fasted speed. maybe was just luck of some sort but i am starting to suspect any key words used in single player. i never thought of it but would i guess nobody thought of those sp "cheats" as beeing "adjusted" ?
17blue17 said:
Bet you they're actually not random - I'd been having similar inexplicable crashes every five minutes or so, but then I looked at the history file; the problem was that every time Venice (at least, Venice was always around whereas the other members of this alliance change changed) would either declare war on the owner of Rome, or bring the owner of Rome into an alliance at war, the game would crash. Initially I would have said just the Pope was the problem, but then I tried deleting the Papal States and giving its territory to Naples, and the problem persisted. I don't know whether the same provinces will cause it for you, but turn on the columbus cheat, run the game until it crashes, then check the history file - ten to one it's your problem country entering a war. Now, I solved this by just sticking (Naples, actually, since I was still testing in the beginning) in an alliance with Genoa till 1819, and got up to the 1530s without a single crash, so it does seem fixable, but obviously it isn't great gameplay-wise.
Karamani were a whole different situation than Pontic Greeks. They had started speaking Turkish long before 1419 as part of the Karaman Bey plan to create a unified Turkish nation. Karaman Bey, was the first Bey (Prince, Count) of the Karaman State (Karamanoglu in Turkish, Caramania in Italian) and according to his religion (Sunni Islam) he could not force convert anyone to Islam, but what he could do was to enforce the Turkish language in daily use, as in markets and government transactions. This made the Greeks learn Turkish and a few generations later, they even started practising their Orthodox religious sermons in Turkish and forgot Greek. Ottomans had no such policy (this appears to have been too bad for them as we find later on) and did not care about the Turkish language or culture as the Sultans themselves were not Turkish anymore.Nicophorus said:
Wings_SWmud said:
I think the pope is the problem, or perhaps the owner of the city rome. My game crashes always when the pope goes to war. I gave his land to venice and voila, no ctd anymore. I gave pasha my savegame, perhaps he can find the mistake.
[AGUNG
I cant send you pm, could you please empty a bit your box??
Its about those events for silesian duchies
I cant send you pm, could you please empty a bit your box??
Its about those events for silesian duchies
Tunch Khan said:
Karaman bey was Armenian, not Greek.
Your assertion that Cilicia wasn't populated with Armenians in the majority is insane by the way, everything east of Angora was either Armenian or Kurdish.
Even Trebizond wasn't majority Greek. The upper class was, but everyone else was Armenian (Majority) or Georgian (Minority).
Eastern Anatolia had a Greek upper class ever since Alexander the Great, and a Turkish one after Manzikert, but until the 1920s was primarily Armenian and Kurdish.
A lot of Turkish historians talk about Turkish minorities in eastern Anatolia even before Manzikert, which is impossible of course merely as a matter of logistics, but you have to keep in mind these are the same historians who refer to Kurds as "Mountain Turks" and islamized Armenians and Greeks as "settled Turks who have forgotten how to ride horses".
again when reaching 1470's constant crashes, grrrrrrrrrrrr
k , that is it , i had it, switching back to the older mymap
k , that is it , i had it, switching back to the older mymap
and where exactlly is this file to be modified...? i mean wich folder , lolStettiner said:231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 490 491 492 493 494 514 732 733 734 735 737 738 739 740 741 742 744 745 805 806 819 820 821 837 838 839 840 841 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 937 938 939 976 977 979 980 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1057 1058 1331 1361 1362 1391 1394 1397 1401 1413 1414 1415 1416 1417 1418 1419 1420 1422 1424 1425 1428 1429 1430 1431 1432 1433 1455 1458 1459 1461 1462 1466 1469 1470 1576 1577 1579 1580 1609 1610 1611 1612 1613 1718 1729 1737 1738 1741 1742 1743 1744 1747 1749 1750 1752 1753 1755 1758 1760 1761 1764 1768 1769 1770 1821 1822 1823 1824 1892 1899 1900 1901 1902 1904 1905 1906 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1920 1923 1925 1926 1928 1930 1931 1936 1938 1941 1943 1947 1958 1964 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1974 1978 1981 1990 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2016 2017 2018 269 842 843 1267 1276 1280 1318 1403 1405 1440 1578 1949 1380 1381 1383 1387 1400 1406 1471
472 1171 1174 1289 1290 1335 1379 1402 1404 1441 1445 1446 1449 1451 1452 1739 259
this is how standard European nation known provinces look like. I also spotted Lolland as Terra Incognita, added it, and this thing should work - try it