Ok, this sentence reads a little bit harsh. Sorry for that. Of course you can talk about a game without owning it (thats what many of us love before a new game is going to be released). But complaining is another thing.
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No it is not. You (Well actually apparantly not you because you haven't even registered) bought the game. No where on the box did it say "bug free". On no box EVER made by ANY GAME COMPANY ON EARTH has it ever said "bug free.
You paid for a game with freatures that were all there and they did work. Did they work as intended, proberbly not but they worked. We were not promised real life simulation of the WW2 comabt role only to find a paper card in the box saying "AHAHAHAHAHA OWNED!".
Deal with it.
You sure put up a lot of effort to disprove your own statements - now exactly where on the posters does it say the movie will have an ending? Or is that a definition that a movie must have an ending?
Not that I have participated in this debate regarding SF - but now since I am a long term PDX customer with more games than I registred (just to disprove Johans so called "fact") I feel I have every right to complain.
So to make it short - I agree with most people here that PDX should have backported all the crucial fixes to the vanilla version, atleast if they want to keep me as a customer after SF (yes I bought it - to get the game somewhat expected behaviour from a WW2 GS game). I am not going to buy anything else from PDX at launch anymore..
Have a nice weekend..
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Sometimes I think people are putting on rose-coloured glasses when looking at Paradox's past. Now, I haven't played all of the older Paradox games, but I think I've played my fair share over the past decade. And the fact is that those games were barely playable out of the box. Paradox managed to gain a reputation of good post-release patch support, but those patches merely brought the games up to a tolerable state. Many if not all of them still contained major bugs that never got fixed.
What has perhaps changed is that the player base is no longer so accepting of bugs. We see people declaring the game unplayable over any number of (seems to me) minor issues. Yes, I understand that people want to have a smooth gaming experience that doesn't get interrupted by CTDs or outrageously stupid AI behaviour. But games comes with bugs, Paradox games have always been extra buggy, and HoI3 is nowhere near as broken as the forum would have us believe compared to past Paradox releases.
To be clear, I'm not saying that it is okay for Paradox to stop supporting their games once they don't crash every 5 minutes or something. But I do think that HoI3 isn't in that state. Hell, I think it's a lot better than CK's resetting army morale and HoI2's ghost ships.
This is not a lawyer problem. This is all about customer satisfaction and good company policy about support already selled products. Warsaw, Stalingrad "a few miles" in other direction, CV without Cags, Sov always crushed by Germans etc. is not advertised on Hoi3 box 
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Releasing Semper Fi with such bugs fixed should automatically deliver 1.5 to Hoi3.
Ok - Darth Tracid - my post is corrected now.
.Releasing Semper Fi with such bugs fixed should automatically deliver 1.5 to Hoi3.
Ok - Darth Tracid - my post is corrected now.
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without pointing at specific people, I would encourage you all to read the rules carefully before posting again, as a lot of the last 2 pages in this thread is borderline for infractions.
I owned the game once, like i wrote in this Thread. I was able to give it back and got a refund.
And still you are wrong. On a package of bread doesnt stand "Its edible". when you buy a car there is no sticker "It can drive" And of course there is no need to write "It does work" on a Computer Programm.
Because all this attributes are supposed by an average member of society to be there. They are part of the agreement between you and the seller. You agree to pay money, they agree to give you a usable product which all the advertised features (And no "Best Car ever" or "Bet WW2 Game ever" are no advertised features of course, ) and all stuff which is a common trait of said product.
If the description reads "historischen Realismus" (historical realism) then the game has to include that. If the description reads "Realistische Militärführungs-KI" (realistical Military-AI) then the game has to include that.
Both are features the game was advertised with in germany.
If you say Product X has Feature A B and C. and Feature C is not there and A and B are faulty, then the Product is faulty. Now the producer either can correct the faults or refund you.
And now we have a situation where it is to late for some people to choose option B (refund) but the producer chooses to stop his tries to fix the faulty parts.
Deal with it.
There does seem to be bigger problems with the Hearts of Iron series than with other Paradox games, in terms of polish, bugs, and just failure to check that things work before releasing them. Hearts of Iron 2 had some very serious problems too, if I recall correctly, specifically with some important event files and also air AI (the latter more of a design failure than an actual bug).
And I don't see why it should be so controversial for a customer to complain if she feels that she's being sold a broken product and then having to pay for getting it fixed.
In my opinion, SF offers very little in the way of expansion material, most of the stuff is just fixes. Yes, some nice minor features have been added. But compare with the EU3 expansions, which all offer new gameplay and dimensions to the game.
Now I HAVE pre-ordered the expansion. But I do feel that I am paying money mostly for a patch with fixes, and worse, that I previously paid double that money for owning an in-development beta version of a game.
For me Paradox is a bit like a really bitchy girlfriend, you hate her but you still love her. You are willing to forgive her a lot of things, but in the end you feel that one day you will get tired of it all and say goodbye.
I am a long-time fan of Paradox games and the Hearts of Iron series, but since several years I have stopped playing their games on release - I buy it on release just to have a look, and then I wait the one year required to fix the AI and sort out other problems present in the release version. I don't want to ruin my experience by playing a bad "version" of the game. With HoI3 however, this went to new heights, I was frankly a bit shocked - the game was really not finished on release. It's improved with patches, and now I have been playing, but I'm still not really hooked in, still waiting for problems to be fixed.
But I have faith in you, my love. I am still hoping things will get better. Because despite the frustrations, you still often manage to make me happy in the end. But please, dear, please - FINISH BETA TESTING BEFORE RELEASE!
And I don't see why it should be so controversial for a customer to complain if she feels that she's being sold a broken product and then having to pay for getting it fixed.
In my opinion, SF offers very little in the way of expansion material, most of the stuff is just fixes. Yes, some nice minor features have been added. But compare with the EU3 expansions, which all offer new gameplay and dimensions to the game.
Now I HAVE pre-ordered the expansion. But I do feel that I am paying money mostly for a patch with fixes, and worse, that I previously paid double that money for owning an in-development beta version of a game.
For me Paradox is a bit like a really bitchy girlfriend, you hate her but you still love her. You are willing to forgive her a lot of things, but in the end you feel that one day you will get tired of it all and say goodbye.
I am a long-time fan of Paradox games and the Hearts of Iron series, but since several years I have stopped playing their games on release - I buy it on release just to have a look, and then I wait the one year required to fix the AI and sort out other problems present in the release version. I don't want to ruin my experience by playing a bad "version" of the game. With HoI3 however, this went to new heights, I was frankly a bit shocked - the game was really not finished on release. It's improved with patches, and now I have been playing, but I'm still not really hooked in, still waiting for problems to be fixed.
But I have faith in you, my love. I am still hoping things will get better. Because despite the frustrations, you still often manage to make me happy in the end. But please, dear, please - FINISH BETA TESTING BEFORE RELEASE!
Oddly enough paradox never said they were making HOI3 into a realistic game, in fact they have said over and over in numerous other game threads that there games are a sand box remake of the WW2 period that offers Ahistorical outcomes. I don't remember reading realistic military AI either (That sentence is actually flawed because Militarys in RL don't even have AI (PUN!)).
Well those two statements were from pages where you can buy the game.
:rofl: Point for you.
Amazing
The logic in this thread should belong in a disertation for a doctorate
Let's see if I can summarize some of the points that have come up.
1) People are NOT going to purchase SF (even with all the new features that I think will VASTLY improve the game) simply because the vanilla version will not be patched again
2) If by some miracle vanilla was to be patched, THEN they WOULD buy SF
3) SF has been in development since October 2009 (9 months) yet some think all the features in SF should have been inculded in vanilla (while this would have been nice, it is doubtful HoI3 would have even been released at all as Paradox many have had to go out of business, which a few think would be OK)
I am sure I have missed some, but I think this gets most of the points.
The reason that I find this thread so interesting is that after buying HoI3 for $40 and SF for $20 more, I will end up with a really great game for $60 (and please do not use the argument that it's not the cost it is the prnicple argument. While valid, the cost is so low compared other more important things to care about it is not worth the effort involved.). While some may care about the end state of vanilla, I don't as vanilla no longer matters to me at all. I have gotten 100's of hours of enjoyment out of vanilla from the beginning (which only improved with the patches) so I am a happy camper
I should point out that I may be one of the few people here that absolulely detested HoI1 and 2 (even with the expansions). With those games I feel like I was ripped off like some here feel about HoI3. I actually bought HoI2 twice once when it first came out and part of the bundle a few years later in the hopes that the expansions would make it better (it did not).
So I understand the anguish. However, I do NOT understand the logic that because vanilla is a dead end, the expansion will not be bought even though it will provide a major upgrade to the player's experience. even as it does fix the issues still remaining in HoI3 (none of which have ever really bothered me in the first palce btw).
I have a number of games that have become dead ends. It happens all the time. It just happened sooner with HoI3 and nothing you say here will change that fact. You can accept it or not. For all I know, maybe venting here does help in some way, as soooo many people seem to do it
The logic in this thread should belong in a disertation for a doctorate
Let's see if I can summarize some of the points that have come up.
1) People are NOT going to purchase SF (even with all the new features that I think will VASTLY improve the game) simply because the vanilla version will not be patched again
2) If by some miracle vanilla was to be patched, THEN they WOULD buy SF
3) SF has been in development since October 2009 (9 months) yet some think all the features in SF should have been inculded in vanilla (while this would have been nice, it is doubtful HoI3 would have even been released at all as Paradox many have had to go out of business, which a few think would be OK)
I am sure I have missed some, but I think this gets most of the points.
The reason that I find this thread so interesting is that after buying HoI3 for $40 and SF for $20 more, I will end up with a really great game for $60 (and please do not use the argument that it's not the cost it is the prnicple argument. While valid, the cost is so low compared other more important things to care about it is not worth the effort involved.). While some may care about the end state of vanilla, I don't as vanilla no longer matters to me at all. I have gotten 100's of hours of enjoyment out of vanilla from the beginning (which only improved with the patches) so I am a happy camper
I should point out that I may be one of the few people here that absolulely detested HoI1 and 2 (even with the expansions). With those games I feel like I was ripped off like some here feel about HoI3. I actually bought HoI2 twice once when it first came out and part of the bundle a few years later in the hopes that the expansions would make it better (it did not).
So I understand the anguish. However, I do NOT understand the logic that because vanilla is a dead end, the expansion will not be bought even though it will provide a major upgrade to the player's experience. even as it does fix the issues still remaining in HoI3 (none of which have ever really bothered me in the first palce btw).
I have a number of games that have become dead ends. It happens all the time. It just happened sooner with HoI3 and nothing you say here will change that fact. You can accept it or not. For all I know, maybe venting here does help in some way, as soooo many people seem to do it
Sandbox might include USA joining in 39, (sometimes), might even go as far as Poland joining the Axis (which it doesent in the game, but just to make a point), heck, it might a few times even go as far as France DoW ing Germany in 36 for reocupation of the Reinland, but the USA doing absolutley NOTHING even though they are at war, Britan beeing able to take with 3 transport ships and no airsupperiority, Japain landing in Finnland, USA NOT beeing in war and still getting half of germany etc. is not sandbox.
I dont even understand why there is such a discussion about this.
I would say noone here is simply a hater or troll, simply becouse noone stays a year after the realease of a game in the forum activley if they dont like it. Indeed love it. So just to dismiss their complains as "whinny!", idotic and "little boys" is itself close to trolling.
I again have no bad experience with this game. It beats every other WW2 game I played thus far, includeing Hoi2 and AoD by lengths, even without an expansion. Especially with some of the great mods here, which btw. shows that many problems are just balaning problems, not hardcoded.
I btw. dont think that Paradox is exploiting me, indeed I belive that EA: Sports is exploiting for example, even though theire games are nearly without bugs, simply becouse the just release the same game over and over again with a few upgades, for full price.
Pradox relly tried, one can see that, heck it has 15000 provinces, they could have made half of it and it would have still beated everything else by miles.
But in the end this does not justify releasing and unfnished game. Especially the way some people treat those who complain that they have to pay for a bugfix. The arguments used are simply insane, like they never said its without bugs... well they never said its with bugs either
.Honeslty, this argument is aproaching the level of the famous "Paradox owes me 10.000$ for casing stress and me taking time of my job and so on." I dont know if you remember the guy at the realease of the game, but I feel remined of him.
But all laws and arguments aside, fact is, most people that are still playng Hoi3 gave paradox a lot of time and support, considering the state it was in on realease. I can understnad why a guy whosy game is still crashing or simply utterly ruined by bugs gets pissed if paradox now says if you want it fixed you have to pay. They kinda feels ... well pissed on. Sorry for the word.
A 1.5 with simply the gamebraking bugfixes extracted from SF EVEN 3 MONTS AFTER THE RELEASE of SF so that theire sales dont suffer under it would be probably more symobolic gesture, but one that would show the dedicated fanbase that they are not simply seen as walking walltes by PI. (which I dont accuse of PI, just saying that some might get the impression).
Alternativly, they could give a free bugfix at least to those who preordered Hoi3. AGAIN BUGFIXES not the new features.
Anyways, cant wait for the release tomorrow, so lets all cheer up a bit, eyh?
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Complaining ina CIVILIZED manner is a freedom of speech and indeed a powerfull tool. If it was not bothering anyone, noone would comment, but the vast amout of response in this theard shows that complaining does have an effect. It might not change Hoi3, but it might Hoi4. If no costumer would complain, noone would give a damn about the customers, which includes you btw. and thing would be much worse now.
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You know various retailers write their own sales pages, right? Assuming you bought it from, say, Amazon, and Amazon wrote "100% realistic WWII game!" and you found it wasn't 100% realistic your "claim" would be against Amazon and not Paradox. Although as I said in my last reply to you, I know think the law you quoted applies to software anyway.
I just invested the 20 € because I believe in the concept of the publisher and developer Paradox. Releasing special interest games for a "dying" plattform like the PC.
If the Expansion enriches my gaming experience of HOI3 then I am pretty content.
Think about Ricky or about HTTT, it is common sense that those expansions are essential, they finalized the product and made it complete.
Paradox is not your usual mass-market dev, and so are their products.
They screwed vanilla HOI3 up, that's for sure. But they learned their lesson and they put a lot of effort into bringing the franchise back on track. So your anger and your criticism are surely heard.
Maybe I pay for something that should have been perfect or bugfree from the start but you get used to it when you've started with playing EU1 and CTDs all the time.
While thinking about the software market in general such expectations of a "flawless" product are illusional.
PDX has to make money too, to be able provide us with quality products.
Therefore I do not expect a game and patch support for a product that is several years old. Semper Fi is a new release, here I do expect support and patches.
Face the facts you can't change the economic pressure that lies on software development.
You can only hope that this company sticks to it's own set rules and moral standards concerning the treatment and support for their capital:
Their customers.
If the Expansion enriches my gaming experience of HOI3 then I am pretty content.
Think about Ricky or about HTTT, it is common sense that those expansions are essential, they finalized the product and made it complete.
Paradox is not your usual mass-market dev, and so are their products.
They screwed vanilla HOI3 up, that's for sure. But they learned their lesson and they put a lot of effort into bringing the franchise back on track. So your anger and your criticism are surely heard.
Maybe I pay for something that should have been perfect or bugfree from the start but you get used to it when you've started with playing EU1 and CTDs all the time.
While thinking about the software market in general such expectations of a "flawless" product are illusional.
PDX has to make money too, to be able provide us with quality products.
Therefore I do not expect a game and patch support for a product that is several years old. Semper Fi is a new release, here I do expect support and patches.
Face the facts you can't change the economic pressure that lies on software development.
You can only hope that this company sticks to it's own set rules and moral standards concerning the treatment and support for their capital:
Their customers.
I wonder if Paradox would release their original products as like 'Hearts of Iron 3 - Incomplete', then maybe it would be more straigthforward, that they work this way. They present you the idea, you can try it out for an initial price (which is about 2/3 of normal starting price of marketed sotfware, by the way), and you can keep on financing them through the development by buying the expansions, and giving feedback on this very forum. Although, I'm not sure they actually know they work like this, only it always turns out that way...
Well they charge less than the price of a typical PC game, which to me suggests that they understand that right out of the box, the game is typically not completely finished. This is fair, if you think about it.
HOI 3 sort of took this to a new level though, which obviously didn't sit well with a lot of people.
Indeed. Hopefully the new Q&A system will be better with this, although Vicky 2 is of course not trying to reinvent so many systems, so the number of bugs is likely to be smaller. HOI3 disappointed me on release, but I am enjoying it now. I wonder if Paradox may release some of the fixes in time or the price for Semper Fi will obviously lower. Not perfect for those who want HOI3 to be polished before expansions, but they have no legal obligation, and they do need money.
Well, I can't tell about it being a new level, as I didn't play any of their earlier games out of the box, and actually didn't buy HoI3 at release either...
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