My two hopes for HoI4

[Clio]

There were two things that really put me off in HoI3.
One was that there was not even an attempt to simulate the breakup of the British empire after WWII. Not even releasable cores other than India?!?!?!?
Another, is that nations in faction couldn't white-peace they would basically fight forever until one had conquered or puppeted the other. This isn't very realistic- only Germany and the Soviet Union seeked to actually expand their borders. The allies should have a default "Install democracy" wargoal that actually works. Nations in factions should also be able to sign separate peace treaties with an enemy faction leader for a cost (you would be automatically kicked from your faction) or something.

Please implement. More cores of new nations! More realism! Less UK annexing Italy!

 

[aruon]

+1. pretty much completely this.

 

[safe-keeper]

Agree fully. HOI3's war system was just strange.

 

[Secret Master]

So the only consequence to signing a separate peace as Romania or Italy would be to be kicked out the faction? Seems kind of weak compared to what happened to Axis powers who quit historically.

 

[aruon]

So the only consequence to signing a separate peace as Romania or Italy would be to be kicked out the faction? Seems kind of weak compared to what happened to Axis powers who quit historically.

they don't have to be dropped out of the war with everyone. or even with revanchism, the soviets probably would've loved nothing more than to get back at the Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians if they had quit out before the end. especially if their respective peace treaties were with the allies. which means absolutely nothing to another warring party.

 

[Secret Master]

they don't have to be dropped out of the war with everyone. or even with revanchism, the soviets probably would've loved nothing more than to get back at the Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians if they had quit out before the end. especially if their respective peace treaties were with the allies. which means absolutely nothing to another warring party.

Then a change in the mechanic makes no sense in the way the OP envisions it.

Why bother being kicked out of the faction if you are still at war with one of the other factions when making peace with one faction? Romania signs a peace treaty with the Allies, but is still at war with the COMINTERN. They are kicked out of the Axis. But they are still at war with the COMINTERN just like the Axis, so nothing effectively changes.

Now, if you told me, "Axis nations should be able to sign a separate peace, with a chance that their government is overthrown by pro-Axis ministers OR with a chance that German units disarm their military and occupy relevant areas, rendering the surrender moot," I'd be all for it. Several Axis countries did negotiate separate peace treaties, but Hungary and Italy failed to successfully pull it off.

It would also mean that Germany has to mind her Balkan and Italian allies a bit better than they do now.

 

[Dalwin]

What are some decent examples of this actually happening during the era at all? With very few exceptions the nations involved did fight until they were defeated.

One of the few exceptions was the '39 Winter War in Finland. This one was launched by the soviets as a limited war rather than total war.

Some nations such as Italy didn't fight until the bitter end, but they did fight until defeated. Getting some white peace a year or two in when things begin to go badly simply does not fit HOI. Those systems are fine for CK/Vicky/EU, because in those games you are not simply fighting one war. In those games you are fighting a series of wars over centuries.

 

[Gratch11]

No offence, but there are bigger fish to fry than this when it comes to improving HOI 3

 

[Secret Master]

What are some decent examples of this actually happening during the era at all? With very few exceptions the nations involved did fight until they were defeated.

But "defeated" is a rather nebulous concept. Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, all left the Axis before reaching what HOI3 would consider the surrender threshold. Italy overthrew Mussolini and sided with the Allies before even 30% of the mainland was taken; the Germans short circuited this because the Italians screwed up the military part. Hungary tried to maintain an armistice with the Soviets within days of them crossing the Hungarian border, but the Germans overthrew Hungary's government by military force, keeping them in the war. Romania overthrew the regime with the support of their own king, signed a treaty with the Allies and Soviets, and declared war on Germany before significant portions of Romania had been occupied. Bulgaria overthrew its own government days after Romania switched sides because the Romanians gave military access to the Allies and Soviets. Finland signed what was more or less a white peace with the Soviets in 1944, leaving the Axis.

While I don't mind HOI3's mechanics in this regard, it doesn't reflect what was happening on the ground at the end of the war. While all of these countries were in serious jeopardy when they switched sides, they didn't meet the requirements for an HOI3 surrender. It might be nice to have a political and diplomatic set up where countries without a strong commitment to their faction are more willing to swap sides when things get rough or surrender before the threshold is released, with the option of other faction members blocking this move via military or covert operations.

 

[Dalwin]

I can certainly agree to that. The HOI surrender mechanics have always been a bit too simplistic. There is too much of "one size fits all" to them. The concept of national unity seemed like an attempt to move in the right direction, but the results did not mirror reality very well for the Axis minors among others.

I just don't like seeing the term "white peace" cross into another Paradox title. The Axis minors did not really negotiate a separate peace in the same sense that it is often used in other games. They saw that the end was both inevitable and near and did what they could to minimize the destruction within their own borders.

 

[safe-keeper]

Historically, yes. But what if the Soviets had actually surrendered, (which they sometimes do in HOI3 -- in fact, if you manage to take Leningrad and Moscow, it isn't even that hard to pull off) and Hitler had been able to pull a significant portion of his forces to Western Europe? Might the British and Americans have been less reluctant to sign a seize-fire then? Or what if they succeeded in assassinating Hitler in 1944, and Rommel took the helm? Wasn't it his intent to try to negotiate peace with the Allies?

 

[scroggin]

Finland signed what was more or less a white peace with the Soviets in 1944, leaving the Axis.

My understanding is that Finland actually considered themselves to be Co-belligerents with Germany Rather than allies. They never joined the axis. Mannerhiem actually refused to even meet with Hitler in person.

 

[Adonnus]

My understanding is that Finland actually considered themselves to be Co-belligerents with Germany Rather than allies. They never joined the axis. Mannerhiem actually refused to even meet with Hitler in person.

They actually did meet. Some brave man snuck in a voice recorder and thus we have the only record of Hitler speaking in a normal conversation. But Finland never attacked Leningrad despite German demands, so I suppose co-belligerent is a better term than ally.

 

[scroggin]

They actually did meet. Some brave man snuck in a voice recorder and thus we have the only record of Hitler speaking in a normal conversation. But Finland never attacked Leningrad despite German demands, so I suppose co-belligerent is a better term than ally.

You are right I double checked on Wikipedia. This is what it says;


Adolf Hitler decided to visit Finland on 4 June 1942, ostensibly to congratulate Mannerheim on his 75th birthday. But Mannerheim did not want to meet him in his headquarters in Mikkeli or in Helsinki, as it would have seemed like an official state visit. The meeting took place near Imatra, in south-eastern Finland, and was arranged in secrecy.[42]

I must have "misremembered"