My take on BTech weapon balance

Camicon Dachass

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AGAIN, not what I said. I did not say that only the first missile can hit the called location.

How can anyone read "only the first missile will hit the called location" in the statement "only some will hit the targeted location"?


E: Take a called shot at a mech with an exposed location, but choose a different non-adjacent location that still has armor, and use only one LRM rack (say, fire at the armored LT of a mech with an exposed RT), preferably an LRM20 so it's really obvious. Some of the damage numbers in the flytext will pop up white, and some will pop up orange, and not in any order, showing very clearly that the missiles have spread all over the mech to the point that some have hit that other torso.
Because you prefaced that with "Nor can an actual Called Shot be executed with LRMs". Yes, it absolutely can. LRMs behave exactly the same as every other weapon system when performing a Called Shot. They differ only when it comes to headshots, so I assumed that's what you were talking about. Apologies if you weren't.

If you look at Dermenore's screen shots, that Called shot to the CT they made with LRMs spread a grand total of 32 damage into locations other than the CT, while putting 80 damage into the CT. That's twenty missiles hitting the CT, and eight hitting other components; probably fired 30 LRMs in that salvo, so 2 missed completely. Total accuracy = 93.3%, Component accuracy = 71.4%

The reason you have damage spread like that is because LRMs fire way more projectiles than most other weapons, so in any given salvo you have a higher chance of some of those missile not hitting the targeted component (because every projectile you fire in a Called Shot has a chance to miss the targeted component).
 

Max_Killjoy

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Because you prefaced that with "Nor can an actual Called Shot be executed with LRMs".

Because an actual called shot puts the entirety of the damage on the called location, if it succeeds. With LRMs, it's not really a called shot, it's a somewhat focused shot, because once the first missile's location is determined, the rest may or may not hit, and may or may not hit that location.

And if you read the rest of that comment, it does say you can use LRMs with a Called Shot, and it does say that the first missile acts like the shot for any other weapon.


If you look at Dermenore screen shots, that Called shot to the CT they made with LRMs spread a grand total of 32 damage into locations other than the CT, while putting 80 damage into the CT. That's twenty missiles hitting the CT, and eight hitting other components; probably fired 30 LRMs in that salvo, so 2 missed completely. Total accuracy = 93.3%, Component accuracy = 71.4%

The reason you have damage spread like that is because LRMs fire way more projectiles than most other weapons, so in any given salvo you have a higher chance of some of those missile not hitting the targeted component (because every projectile you fire in a Called Shot has a chance to miss the targeted component).

And that's exactly what I described.

Some of the missiles missed entirely, some of the missile hit other locations -- instead of all the damage hitting one location the way a single AC or PPC or laser would.

LRM's don't act like SRMs or MGs (the other spamfire weapons), they don't independently determine hit location for each missile that hits target, they do a sort of "follow the leader" thing based on where the first missile from that rack hit.

(And yes, most weapons fire exactly one projectile per "trigger pull".)

If an AC hit the called location, it does 100% of its damage to the called location. Same with a PPC, or a Large Laser, or... rather than doing 71% or whatever it might be on any one LRM "called shot".
 
Last edited:

Camicon Dachass

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Because an actual called shot puts the entirety of the damage on the called location, if it succeeds. With LRMs, it's not really a called shot, it's a somewhat focused shot, because once the first missile's location is determined, the rest may or may not hit, and may or may not hit that location.

And if you read the rest of that comment, it does say you can use LRMs with a Called Shot, and it does say that the first missile acts like the shot for any other weapon.
SRMs, and MGs behave exactly the same way LRMs do in a Called Shot scenario: the percentages you see apply to every projectile fired from every weapon system.

If we replicated the results of Dermenores LRM Called Shot with 2xSRM6s, what we'd see is: 1 complete miss, 3-4 SRMs hitting non targeted components, and 7-8 SRMs hitting the targeted component.

If we replicated the results of Dermenore's LRM Called Shot with 10 MLs, what we'd see is: 1 complete miss, 2-3 MLs hitting non-targeted components, and 6-7 MLs hitting the targeted component.

Both are still "actual" Called Shots.
 

Max_Killjoy

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May 1, 2018
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SRMs, and MGs behave exactly the same way LRMs do in a Called Shot scenario: the percentages you see apply to every projectile fired from every weapon system.

If we replicated the results of Dermenores LRM Called Shot with 2xSRM6s, what we'd see is: 1 complete miss, 3-4 SRMs hitting non targeted components, and 7-8 SRMs hitting the targeted component.

If we replicated the results of Dermenore's LRM Called Shot with 10 MLs, what we'd see is: 1 complete miss, 2-3 MLs hitting non-targeted components, and 6-7 MLs hitting the targeted component.

Both are still "actual" Called Shots.

Somebody help me out here.

Do LRMs "cluster" hit locations on called shots the same way they do on all other shots?

Do SRMs and MGs EVER cluster on ANY shots, called or otherwise?

Actually, someone already did that thread.
 

Jade_Rook

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Hmm... I thought I had posted data on clustering with called shots. I'll recheck tomorrow. It is a little too late for me tonight. ;)

By my understanding, LRMs and SRMs do not behave the same way with called shots. LRMs only get the bonus for determining the center of the cluster, but not for the remaining missiles. SRMs (and MGs) get the bonus on every missile.
 

Dermenore

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[...]

If an AC hit the called location, it does 100% of its damage to the called location. Same with a PPC, or a Large Laser, or... rather than doing 71% or whatever it might be on any one LRM "called shot".

And there is where damage by tons and damage by heat come in the stage!

What is better:
- Deal 71% damage of a 160 damage attack, so inflicted 113,6 damage?
- Deal 100% damage of a 100 damage attack, so inflicted 100 damage?

Because with their 8 tons by damage, LRM deal 160% damage of the average 5 tons by damage of the AC long range weapon.

That without speak about the advantage of doing more stability damage, of course. After to be honest, laser weapon will do more damage in their called shoot than LRM, because their tons/damage is the same but the laser will did 100%. But that will be at the expense than far worse heat by damage. Not a real winner, only pro, and con.

The point his, Max_Killijoy that you said LRM called shoot is worse than other weapons. And the fact is, there are not.

It's just another reason to justify an LRM nerf. Again, understand that I am not like these PVP people you describe earlier. I ask a nerf to my favorite weapon.

Hmm... I thought I had posted data on clustering with called shots. I'll recheck tomorrow. It is a little too late for me tonight. ;)

By my understanding, LRMs and SRMs do not behave the same way with called shots. LRMs only get the bonus for determining the center of the cluster, but not for the remaining missiles. SRMs (and MGs) get the bonus on every missile.

I don't understand. Do you say that all the LRM have not the bonus of called shoot? But it's in this case, why the majority of my missile hit the CT in the screenshot I posted?
 

Fauxknight

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I don't understand. Do you say that all the LRM have not the bonus of called shoot? But it's in this case, why the majority of my missile hit the CT in the screenshot I posted?

Because once the first missile hit location is determined then ~2/3 of the rest of the missiles from that launcher hit the same spot. If the initial missile hit location ends up not being the targeted location then you will see the opposite effect, most or all of the following missiles will also miss that location .
 

Dermenore

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I will do more test to see if that true(especially with mech warrior who have a lower score in tactic). But even if that is the case, the very good damage/tons of the LRM make their called shoot effective.
 

Fauxknight

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I will do more test to see if that true(especially with mech warrior who have a lower score in tactic). But even if that is the case, the very good damage/tons of the LRM make their called shoot effective.

I do not disagree there. While LRMs may get less damage on target than any other weapon, their high damage/ton for a long ranged weapon still makes them superior to most other options.

Large LRM launchers tend to do around twice the damage per ton of other long ranged options like Large Lasers and PPCs. This means even if 1/3 of your missiles never hit where you want them to that the LRM is still dealing more damage on target than other options.

Much of this is a fault of how LRMs are handled in game vs TT. Between throwing out the normal missile chart and then adding in the clustering mechanic LRMs simply do both too much damage and too much damage on target. It's no wonder their damage got nerfed by 20%, but they still are extraordinarily potent.
 

Carl_Bar

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While Precision Shot is strong, I think people overstate its effectiveness, even at max Morale in the campaign. Without High Spirits, you're not getting back enough to just keep spamming it, and there are also times when Vigilance really does take precedence.

I completely agree, i get most called shots from knockdowns, and since LRM's are the primary source of knockdowns and you need at least two alvos to get a knockdown it's generally the case that LRM's spread their damage around a lot, for that matter SRM's are my preferred followup weapon to finish the knockdown so i personally see them spread a lot too.
 

Pherdnut

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LRMs are always mostly spread. Called shots are wasted on them.

SRMs and MGs are difficult to focus on one part in the early game. The CS chance is weak and frequency of activation is low.

Since you're still frequently taking non-called shots regardless, the spread vs heavy damage on one part factor is never irrelevant. Excess focus on total DAMAGE is silly when there are 8 parts damage can land on.

You also have to consider weight, space, heat, range, minimum range, stability damage, ammunition, accuracy, etc...

After a lot of hours, I've found uses for all weapons throughout the game. I think they're pretty well balanced.
 

Dermenore

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I completely agree, i get most called shots from knockdowns, and since LRM's are the primary source of knockdowns and you need at least two alvos to get a knockdown it's generally the case that LRM's spread their damage around a lot, for that matter SRM's are my preferred followup weapon to finish the knockdown so i personally see them spread a lot too.

Me too I sometimes prefer to save spirit for vigilance. And sometimes precise shoot can quicker an enemy elimination.
M lasers are also great for followup. I think there are even better than SRM because of the better damage/tons. SRM is still good yet.


LRMs are always mostly spread. Called shots are wasted on them.

SRMs and MGs are difficult to focus on one part in the early game. The CS chance is weak and frequency of activation is low.

Since you're still frequently taking non-called shots regardless, the spread vs heavy damage on one part factor is never irrelevant. Excess focus on total DAMAGE is silly when there are 8 parts damage can land on.

You also have to consider weight, space, heat, range, minimum range, stability damage, ammunition, accuracy, etc...

After a lot of hours, I've found uses for all weapons throughout the game. I think they're pretty well balanced.

Why do you think LRM are always mostly spread? I post screenshots that look the opposite. What advantage do you find for weapons that a lot of people consider bad (AC2, LL, PPC, AC10)?

It's nice to give your opinion. But that would be better if you present your argument about it.
 

Dermenore

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Ok, sorry for double post but I have a lot of information to write and that would be more clear in a single post.

I did somes tests. They prove that LRM called shoot are no affects by clustering. (Edit: In fact not, I was mistaken)

In his topic about the subject, Jade_Rook wrote:

"Also of note, called shots only affect where the cluster is centered. They don't modify the cluster hit tables. An LRM 20 with a called shot to the CT still only expects 9 or 10 missiles to hit the CT."

Indeed, if LRM called shoot was affected by CT, there will always be an area with 50% damage (which would be the place hit by the first LRM), when other damage will be spread around. The aim of the called shoot only increases the probability that the right location would be hit by this 50 %.

But my precedent examples already go again that because with a 80% called shoot, 71% damage go in the CT.

I tested with 33%, 50% and 70% (around) called shoot. There was a direct correlation between the aim of the called shoot and the % of damage suffered by the target location. (But with more data the correlation doesn't continue)

Example 1, 33% on the CT




Total damages: 120
Total CT damages: 44 (36% of 120)

Example 2, 50% on the CT







I only show part of the mech which was damaged to avoid too many screenshots.

Total damages: 74
Total CT damages: 38 (51% of 74)

Example 3, 50% on the RL:





Total damages: 148
Total RL damages: 88 (59% of 148)

Example 4, 70% on the RL:





Total damages: 136
Total RL damages: 90 (66% of 136)

Example 5, 33% on CT:




Total damages: 117
Total CT damages: 54(46%)

Fives examples aren't enough to prove that called shoot LRM work like all other weapons(in a scientific standard). But it's enough to prove they don't work like clustering. Otherwisetherwhise, that will be sometime an other location than the one I targeted who had taken a majority of damages.

I will continue my test, with a higher aim in the called shoot.
 
Last edited:

Max_Killjoy

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Unless there's something buried in the code that makes the game ignore everything that all the modders and code-diggers have found, the game calls the same "LRM clustering" mechanism regardless of what kind of shot was taken.

Regarding your results, a few things:

1) The "clustering" is random, it's going to give variable results (in terms of percentage damage done to the called location) on a small sample size regardless of the initial aim.

2) A called shot that "centers" the LRMs on an adjacent location could still in theory result in one of the lower percentages shown (in the 30s).

3) The higher "aim" makes the called shot more likely to center the "clustering" on the called location (that is, it makes the first missile in the volley more likely to go where it was called), and the rest of the missiles are weighted to hit the location that the first missile hits. This is going to make higher aim percentages lean towards doing more damage to the called location simply by putting the first missile in that location.
 
R

RealCadaver

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First, I didn't say all balance is a matter of perception, I said that some of the claims about imbalance are perception rather than reality.

Furthermore, even when there is a problem, the cause and/or severity of that problem is often perceived incorrectly.

Quite often "balance" arguments come down to "my preferred class or tactic can't faceroll this other class or tactic, therefore that other class or tactic is clearly broken/imbalanced/overpowered". See, every MMO PvP argument ever had ever.

"We did the math" presumes one got the right numbers, the numbers that matter, and in the right ratio, and that it's all universal rather than highly dependent on playstyle, etc. Numbers can lie. Numbers can tell people what people want to hear, rather than what's really there. Numbers are just information, that require interpreting and comprehension.

These breakdowns often seem to forget that even when missiles hit, some of them don't hit. They seem to assume that every attack is a Precision or Called shot coring out one location, and that "shotgunning" damage isn't a factor.

This, 1000 times this. I have read all the "weapons are out of balance threads, here's my take, weapons balance charts", etc. None of them take ALL factors into consideration.

On these boards I'm sure I'm in the minority in thinking the weapons, as is, are actually very well balanced. They allow for successful use of any variety of tactics/play style, using any combination of weapons.


I find range and damage focus to be very underrated in the player created weapons "re-balance" charts I have seen. How is a medium laser better than a PPC, if the medium laser never gets to fire because the PPC carrying mech stays out of range? (as an example). Damage per heat ton is useful, but it's not complete information.

There are also the non weapon's game mechanics/sections that interact with any weapon's effectiveness to consider; terrain, mission, biome, opfor compostion, pilot skill, available morale abilities (to name a few).

Not saying it cannot be improved, however all of the suggestions I have seen so far... appear to go way to far, and violate the basic rule of systems balancing (change one thing and one thing only and test test test).
 

Pherdnut

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Why do you think LRM are always mostly spread? I post screenshots that look the opposite. What advantage do you find for weapons that a lot of people consider bad (AC2, LL, PPC, AC10)?

Simple. Experience, with a healthy self-awareness of confirmation bias, confirms the clustering thing. 20 SRMs pointed at a head late game at 17% (I usually go from the flanks to reduce core damage from misses) will frequently pop a head. 70 LRMs? Not in a million years. Although they do seem to focus one part of the mech better with indirect fire sometimes. I think maybe against flanks indirect fire gets a high chance to hit shoulders / arms and I think it gets a decent chance to hit a head once. That's where the majority of my one damaged part if any per mission comes from when it happens. Too many LRM volleys before I got a chance to swap a mech's facing are the chief source of one part getting damaged on missions sometimes (I lead with flanks and swap back and forth as one gets more damaged than the other).

But try SRMs vs LRMs with roughly the same damage and accuracy, both with direct fire on something like a core. If the SRMs have just enough to regularly core the mech, the LRMs with roughly the same amount of damage will never even get close even if you pad a bit more missiles in to make sure it's not some variance due to the number of projectiles.

SRMs spread a LOT less because they are each their own individual attack. It's not a modest difference. It's obvious when you're firing 70 LRMs to max the stab bars of braced assaults and try the occasional CS on a whim to see whether it makes much of a difference. Maybe just a little bit, but not enough to make it a smart attack to waste the morale on.


Edit: Missed your other questions:

AC/2 - okay yes, they're not that great but I haven't found a good alternative to the AC/2s on the gun Jaeger. They add a bit of kick to a sniper mech that can't pack two more AC/5s for lack of tonnage or long-range energy without creating heat problems. First mod I make to the Jaeger is to strip the mLasers in favor of the Jumpjets. I leave the AC/2s alone.

I have no idea why people don't like AC/10s. Since updating my KCs with AC/10s they take a lot less damage and the + and ++ versions (Kali Yama) do enough damage to blow a healthy head off in one hit. 10s have much longer range, much less heat than AC/20s I'd like them if they weighed the same as the 20s but they weigh a smidge less. AC/10 haters are hung up on damage like it was World of Warcraft or something and not a TBS with a lot of details.

Large Lasers have 0 minimum range making them mix well with your long and short range weapons. Until you get better heat equip you can't pack a lot of them on but they still mix nicely with AC/5s or 10s when tonnage is low and cooling is plentiful. With Heat exchangers my Atlas 2 currently mixes L Lasers with its other equip.

PPCs - Extreme range energy weapon with plenty of stab damage? What's not to like. Especially the ++ ones with insane stability damage. Any mech can equip one without disastrous heat consequences and a lot more stuff will fall down and go boom as a result.
 
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Camicon Dachass

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Simple. Experience, with a healthy self-awareness of confirmation bias, confirms the clustering thing. 20 SRMs pointed at a head late game at 17% (I usually go from the flanks to reduce core damage from misses) will frequently pop a head. 70 LRMs? Not in a million years. *snip*
LRMs have a different mechanic, specifically with regards to headshots, to avoid that sort of thing. If the first LRM out of your launcher doesn't hit the head then none of them do. So, while 4xLRM5s and 1xLRM20 are both firing the same number of missiles, the 4xLRM5s have four opportunities to hit the head whereas the 1xLRM20 has only one.
 

Rusticles

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Really simple, the 1st Missile sets the tone for all subsequent missiles. IF (not likely) it actually hits the called shot location; all subsequent missiles "cluster" around the location of the first shot. That means the hit probability is skewed to allow for "most" missiles to hit the same location (thus the 70% - 80% clustering in the same hit location of the 1st missile). The remaining shots are statistically "outliers" from the original 1st hit and thus hit "other" locations. Still other missiles will be farther out and miss entirely. That is because they miss with the first "to hit" roll and thus are not considered for the subsequent "hit location" roll. ONLY the first missile from an LRM Launcher can hit the head... ALL others will auto miss the head (hence, the code written leaves a 0% chance of hitting the head for all subsequent missiles after the first).

It is not hard to understand that LRMs are the only weapon system that clusters hit this way. SRMs and MGs follow the standard "to hit" and "hit location" parameters used by ALL weapon systems other than LRM launchers. Please understand "statistics" and how to determine what the results are via any experiment. Use a "control group" (unmodified game) to set your base then actually modify ONE possible outlier at a time. Always reset your baseline before moving on to the next test.

As I stated before in a previous posting... the OP has results that are both valid and reliable... and thus repeatable under the same set of circumstances and control group.

To (hopefully) end the argument here (unlikely as a head hit with the first missile), IF LRMs were not clustered the way they are... you would have MANY more headshots from LRms. I know this to be a fact because I tested it with my Fire Support Stalker firing 100 LRMs/turn from 2 LRM20 launchers and 2 LRM10 Launchers. At a solid 1% (simply using the chance to hit the game reads) I had ZERO headshots in three battles. Finally got ONE headshot on my fourth battle. I decided then to test what was happening and found that the cluster affect is on full effect.

As Max Killjoy said above (paraphrasing), "fired LRMs are clustered and if you wish to waste a CS on them go ahead." For myself, it is no different than firing any other weapon on a CS. The same probability is given no matter what weapon. It is not the "to hit" roll that is clustered... only the "hit location" roll. Thus, all conjecture is a moot point.

All this talk of confirmation bias is garbage unless it goes into the realm of how you want your outcome to happen. IF you are experimenting with such bias... you are doing it wrong in the first place. Experiments require a hypothesis to begin with and then you try to DISPROVE your hypothesis. Doing it using the scientific method will eliminate confirmation bias... I don't see how it should come into play anyways considering you are experimenting on a GAME... not real life.

Is it really that important to be right? C'mon guys, get real.
 
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Jade_Rook

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I did more testing on LRMs and how called shots affect clustering. Basically, called shots only apply to where the cluster is centered. After that is determined the clustering rules override.

I have updated my post about LRMs and how clustering works with the new test: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/lrms-clustering-and-head-hits.1093703/

This post is about general weapon balance rather than LRM mechanics. I think that in general the weapons are relatively balanced.

Big energy weapons may be a touch too hot (but only about 3 or 4 heat, I wouldn't drop them to TT equivalent).
The AC/5 is touch too strong. I have my game modded to have it at 40 damage instead of 45.
LRMs might need a little tweak. I would probably reduce their accuracy.
SRMs I tweaked so that they become less heat effecient the larger the launcher is. I think I am using 4/10/16 for their heat.

In general I think that each weapon has a purpose and the different types (missiles, ballistics, energy) have a different feel to them. The SRM 2 is about the only exception as it struggles because it has to have an extra ton for ammo.

The AC/2 is for awesome yet masochistic campaign challenges ;).
 
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Dermenore

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Ok, so with the discussion in the other post, I am now convinced than LRM called shoot use cluster mechanic.

The test made by Jade_Rook show that, when CT was targeted, between 51% and 69% missiles hit him.

But, the LRM have still their better damage/tons compare to long-range AC weapon (8 again 5, 60% better).
So, if we take a base of 100 for 5 damage by tons, that would make 160 for 8 damage by tons.

50% of 160: 80
60% of 160: 96
70% of 160: 112

So, AC weapons have a tiny advantage for called shoot again LRM. PPC and LL laser, with their same damage/tons but no cluster, are clearly better than LRM.

[...]


Edit: Missed your other questions:

AC/2 - okay yes, they're not that great but I haven't found a good alternative to the AC/2s on the gun Jaeger. They add a bit of kick to a sniper mech that can't pack two more AC/5s for lack of tonnage or long-range energy without creating heat problems. First mod I make to the Jaeger is to strip the mLasers in favor of the Jumpjets. I leave the AC/2s alone.

I have no idea why people don't like AC/10s. Since updating my KCs with AC/10s they take a lot less damage and the + and ++ versions (Kali Yama) do enough damage to blow a healthy head off in one hit. 10s have much longer range, much less heat than AC/20s I'd like them if they weighed the same as the 20s but they weigh a smidge less. AC/10 haters are hung up on damage like it was World of Warcraft or something and not a TBS with a lot of details.

Large Lasers have 0 minimum range making them mix well with your long and short range weapons. Until you get better heat equip you can't pack a lot of them on but they still mix nicely with AC/5s or 10s when tonnage is low and cooling is plentiful. With Heat exchangers my Atlas 2 currently mixes L Lasers with its other equip.

PPCs - Extreme range energy weapon with plenty of stab damage? What's not to like. Especially the ++ ones with insane stability damage. Any mech can equip one without disastrous heat consequences and a lot more stuff will fall down and go boom as a result.

Interesting. But to be honest, I write too quickly when I ask you what advantage you find to these weapons. It's no the true question for this debate.

The true question is: do these weapons have enough advantage to justify to take them instead of LRM, SRM or medium laser? Rephrase: do all these weapons are equally useful that LRM, SRM or medium laser?

I will tell you why I think that LRM, SRM and M laser are more powerful than other weapons. It's not only because of damage by tons, like RealCadaver think, it's because of stability damage.

When you obtain the LRM 15 and 20, it's become really easy to make fall an enemy mech. Some people use the knockdown are their only weapon to win: they kill enemy pilot by that and that work because knockdown gives also an aim malus. That work and give a very good salvage.

But who said mech fall, said also free called shoot. There free called shoot are what make pinpoint damage pointless. I don't need pinpoint damage because I can choose the target I want. Damages by tons become very important because they allow me to destroy quicker the part I want to destroy. If I use an L laser to called shoot a CT, it will do only 40 damage. If I use 5 M laser, I will deal 125 damages. So, with 2 mech equip with SRM and M laser, you can destroy in one turn the CT of a mech knockdown, so destroy an enemy in one turn (often, only one mech is enough). That why LRM, SRM and M lasers are so powerful.

When I start to use this tactic, I really had the feeling to past in easy mod. Mission, when I need to "kill specific target than retreat" or "hold the position X turns" finished, will all enemies mech destroy and a lance almost intact in my side. I kill all enemies to the second to last mission with just some internal damage on my mech (I had one Higlander, one Battlemaster, one Black Knight and one Jaggermech). The last mission was a joke for me so much it was easy. I made missions with 5 skulls with a drop tons of 4 skull and that is still very easy.

When I compare with the time when I used all the weapon, I don't see a reason to change. Not because AC weapons, LL and PPC are useless. But because the others are far better.

I wish I could use all weapons in the game. I will like to do. But I am so used to optimize in games that it's hard to force myself to use something I consider bad. So it's why I want to LRM be nerfed, directly or indirectly.