My problem with the leader traits

[mdw1985]

There is plenty of stuff, that i love concerning HOI4, but still i do not like some things. After reviewing the last dd again, i have to say, that i don't like one point of it.

Just like in HOI3, a commander could acquire new traits by committing certain combats. A commander, who fought many times in the desert, became later or sooner a "desert fox". A commander, who attacked very often, accomplished the "offensive doctrine" trait. So far so good. But what i don't like about this, is that the trait bonusses only became unlocked after reaching 100% of the trait learning, while 99% gave you no bonusses at all for the trait. This "all of a sudden, the commander got enlightened and is a desert fox" thing is kind of unrealistic for me.

Wouldn't it be better, if the bonusses would increase parallel to the learning accomplishment of the certain trait until the maximum learning capacity has been reached? Wouldn't it be more realistic, to give a commander a 9 % battle bonus after reaching 90 % of the desert fox trait instead of giving him nothing? This "all or nothing" thingy seems very odd to me! It is just a thought, but what do you think?

 

[CocoCincinnati]

That might be more realistic but far harder to implement in game I bet. Especially since there is a hard limit of 5 traits but a general can be learning more than 5 at a time.

 

[bkuepers]

Wouldn't it be better, if the bonusses would increase parallel to the learning accomplishment of the certain trait until the maximum learning capacity has been reached?

That would be better. It worked this way in HOI3 with unit experience. That was great. I wonder if the unit experience will work like that in HOI4 as well, or if it will be a fix modifier once they reach the next level.

 

[mdw1985]

That might be more realistic but far harder to implement in game I bet. Especially since there is a hard limit of 5 traits but a general can be learning more than 5 at a time.

I know, that implementing this might be complicated and some work, but like @bkuepers already pointed out very good, HOI 3 was well able to track the exp of each regiment in HOI 3. Tracking the exp of generals shouldn't be more complicated compared to that.

The maximum capacity of traits might also generating some problems. Just a simple fictional example:

General XY
1936: Starts with "defensive doctrine" and "ranger"
1940: Gets "offensive doctrine" and "charismatic" during the invasion of France

1941: Gets "desert fox" for fighting in Africa

1941-1945: Fights in Russia and gets his most exp there. But since the maximum cap of traits is 5, he'll never get "winter expert", "swamp fox" and so on...

So you might "block off" traits, which is problematic, if you cannot replace older less useful traits...

I know, that you still can choose another general. But even Rommel fulfilled as one general several roles (attack in france, campaign in africa, defense of the atlantic wall). I just don't want to replace my most favourite generals, just because they can't learn more traits...

For me it is a flavour thing. But i understand other points of view in this matter as well...

Cheers

 

[fabius]

There is plenty of stuff, that i love concerning HOI4, but still i do not like some things. After reviewing the last dd again, i have to say, that i don't like one point of it.

Just like in HOI3, a commander could acquire new traits by committing certain combats. A commander, who fought many times in the desert, became later or sooner a "desert fox". A commander, who attacked very often, accomplished the "offensive doctrine" trait. So far so good. But what i don't like about this, is that the trait bonusses only became unlocked after reaching 100% of the trait learning, while 99% gave you no bonusses at all for the trait. This "all of a sudden, the commander got enlightened and is a desert fox" thing is kind of unrealistic for me.

Wouldn't it be better, if the bonusses would increase parallel to the learning accomplishment of the certain trait until the maximum learning capacity has been reached? Wouldn't it be more realistic, to give a commander a 9 % battle bonus after reaching 90 % of the desert fox trait instead of giving him nothing? This "all or nothing" thingy seems very odd to me! It is just a thought, but what do you think?

Simple change on surface. But genius and yeah full agree.

That might be more realistic but far harder to implement in game I bet. Especially since there is a hard limit of 5 traits but a general can be learning more than 5 at a time.

Well down the line maybe we can have more input to traits, like managers in RL. Say we could select the traits we want to keep, a bit like sending leaders on training courses.

edited- my own fave is keep % of old trait learning after promotion to FM

 

[Ultimate_Hobo]

My issue is that youre limited to a small number of traits. I guess its for balance reasons but i dont really think it makes a huge amount of sense. Just because im an expert at combat in the desert doesnt mean i couldnt also master combat in Russia.

 

[fabius]

My issue is that youre limited to a small number of traits. I guess its for balance reasons but i dont really think it makes a huge amount of sense. Just because im an expert at combat in the desert doesnt mean i couldnt also master combat in Russia.

And the terrain traits could be a micro encourager to get bonus for this city, swap for forest, swap for river, swap back again for city. Too too many terrain traits that cold be combined, like Urban and Fort. They could have more different traits with higher limit; and some double edged one's like reckless attack (quicker more damage and own casualties) and the converse cautious general.

Said before, but the traits could really be expanded, and linked to doctrines. Blitzkrieg doctrine path could make fitting traits more likely. Grand Battle, well planning, artillery etc This would give the factions more flavour, and something different as we tried different doctrine paths.

 

[mdw1985]

And the terrain traits could be a micro encourager to get bonus for this city, swap for forest, swap for river, swap back again for city. Too too many terrain traits that cold be combined, like Urban and Fort. They could have more different traits with higher limit; and some double edged one's like reckless attack (quicker more damage and own casualties) and the converse cautious general.

Said before, but the traits could really be expanded, and linked to doctrines. Blitzkrieg doctrine path could make fitting traits more likely. Grand Battle, well planning, artillery etc This would give the factions more flavour, and something different as we tried different doctrine paths.

Agreed! Shaping individual Generals for your needs combined with the nation specific land doctrine would be a very nice feature!

Maybe it's at least moddable. Cool traits - like you mentioned - in a double edged way could be

- "cautious planner" ( + 10 % planning bonus, - 10 % planning speed)
- "Reckless Attacker" ( + 10 % planning speed, - 10 % planning bonus)
- "General of the Artillery" ( + 10 % artillery attack, - 10 % movement speed)
- "Infiltrator" ( + 10 % recon, - 10 % initiative)
- "Desperate Defender" ( + 10 % defense, + 10 % attrition)
- "Airborne General" (+ 10 % Air Invasion speed, - 10 % trickleback)

Just examples, but i see a lot of potential here. If the game could track the behaviour of one general and his combat records, so he gets more suited or even negative traits...wow...

 

[vicerory]

There is plenty of stuff, that i love concerning HOI4, but still i do not like some things. After reviewing the last dd again, i have to say, that i don't like one point of it.

Just like in HOI3, a commander could acquire new traits by committing certain combats. A commander, who fought many times in the desert, became later or sooner a "desert fox". A commander, who attacked very often, accomplished the "offensive doctrine" trait. So far so good. But what i don't like about this, is that the trait bonusses only became unlocked after reaching 100% of the trait learning, while 99% gave you no bonusses at all for the trait. This "all of a sudden, the commander got enlightened and is a desert fox" thing is kind of unrealistic for me.

Wouldn't it be better, if the bonusses would increase parallel to the learning accomplishment of the certain trait until the maximum learning capacity has been reached? Wouldn't it be more realistic, to give a commander a 9 % battle bonus after reaching 90 % of the desert fox trait instead of giving him nothing? This "all or nothing" thingy seems very odd to me! It is just a thought, but what do you think?

Totally agree. What always annoyed me in HOI III was that some generals would get stuck at 90% developing a certain trait (like hillfighter) if the front moved on before they could complete it.

I'd go one step further as well and have trait effectiveness scaled not just by development % but also by the amount of divisions commanded by said general. It seems logical to me that the more divisions a general commands, the more his traits 'water down' as he's spreading his efforts across more divisions. A general commanding a 5 division panzer strikeforce has much more influence and control than a general who is managing 15 divisions. A general who is promoted to field marshall and given 30 divisions will still give some bonus from his (100% developed) panzer leader trait, just much less than he would if he was put in charge of only 10 divisions. Same for the Field Marshall traits (like logistics), only the other way around, more effective if in command of more divisions.

This way there would still be a reason to actually promote good generals to field marshall rank. They can develop the FM traits, and start getting small bonuses right away, while the development % slowly ramps up. In the meanwhile they keep providing a small part of the bonus from their general traits.

It would be harder to balance than the current black/white system, but offer more rewarding choices to the player.

 

[vicerory]

Said before, but the traits could really be expanded, and linked to doctrines. Blitzkrieg doctrine path could make fitting traits more likely. Grand Battle, well planning, artillery etc This would give the factions more flavour, and something different as we tried different doctrine paths.

That would be pretty cool as well. Like, if you develop the Blitzkrieg doctrine you increase the % at which panzer/offensive traits increase.

I'm also somewhat partial to adding a random element to trait acquisition, like a general that loses a huge battle (think Stalingrad or Kursk) has a & chance of acquiring a negative trait (like becoming more cautious and thus less effective in attack or something). Similar to how the original Rome: Total War did traits, based on chance, but not 'random'.

 

[fabius]

Agreed! Shaping individual Generals for your needs combined with the nation specific land doctrine would be a very nice feature!

Maybe it's at least moddable. Cool traits - like you mentioned - in a double edged way could be

- "cautious planner" ( + 10 % planning bonus, - 10 % planning speed)
- "Reckless Attacker" ( + 10 % planning speed, - 10 % planning bonus)
- "General of the Artillery" ( + 10 % artillery attack, - 10 % movement speed)
- "Infiltrator" ( + 10 % recon, - 10 % initiative)
- "Desperate Defender" ( + 10 % defense, + 10 % attrition)
- "Airborne General" (+ 10 % Air Invasion speed, - 10 % trickleback)

Just examples, but i see a lot of potential here. If the game could track the behaviour of one general and his combat records, so he gets more suited or even negative traits...wow...

Yeah, so many possibilities. My preference on your suggestions

- "Infiltrator" ( + 10 % recon, - 10 % initiative). I'd call Infiltrator recon and maybe have initiative as a plus (good recon produces good initiative)
-"General of the Artillery" ( + 10 % artillery attack, +10 supply use % movement speed)
- "Desperate Defender" ( + 10 % defence, + 10 % own losses)

More
-Camouflage expert -20% damage taken from air attacks
-Antitank specialist (infantry/TD + % antitank)
- disloyal/ loyal (think Spanish Civil War or Germany loosing; or Vichy general) General and most units under command side with rebellion. % chance of units surrender at or below 50 % strength when fighting for disloyal side.
- Guerrilla Warfare +% against partisans/militias and + suppression and on expedition missions
-Allied co-operation +% fighting with allies
- Inspired Hero 20% chance to gain 30% Org when org drops below 10% (maybe produce some epic last stands or hold on's)

 

[mdw1985]

Yeah, so many possibilities. My preference on your suggestions

- "Infiltrator" ( + 10 % recon, - 10 % initiative). I'd call Infiltrator recon and maybe have initiative as a plus (good recon produces good initiative)
-"General of the Artillery" ( + 10 % artillery attack, +10 supply use % movement speed)
- "Desperate Defender" ( + 10 % defence, + 10 % own losses)

More
-Camouflage expert -20% damage taken from air attacks
-Antitank specialist (infantry/TD + % antitank)
- disloyal/ loyal (think Spanish Civil War or Germany loosing; or Vichy general) General and most units under command side with rebellion. % chance of units surrender at or below 50 % strength when fighting for disloyal side.
- Guerrilla Warfare +% against partisans/militias and + suppression and on expedition missions
-Allied co-operation +% fighting with allies
- Inspired Hero 20% chance to gain 30% Org when org drops below 10% (maybe produce some epic last stands or hold on's)

Camouflage sounds very cool!

 

[Zaku]

I love how Distant Worlds tries to solve this issue, where there are both fixed bonuses as traits, and skill levels which scale during the game. It's somewhat similar to what MDW suggested in his OP.

Here is an example:

 

[fabius]

The could have straight up Doctrine expert traits. These could unlock more as the doctrine progresses

Mobile Warfare expert
Superior Firepower expert
Grand Battle Plan expert
Mass Assault expert

Zaku- yeah one way they could manage that is have levels of traits, scaling with experience.