My Problem with Air Units

[incognitus]

So... basically, in all my games so far, I have more or less completely ignored air combat. Here are my findings, experiences and conclusions so far:

1) There is no need to use air units against weak minors, you can easily defeat them without.

2) Whenever I did try to use air units, I was completely overwhelmed, they lost all their org in the first battle and slept for the rest of the engagement.

3) The massive org loss for rebasing air wings makes them useless to me. My front lines move so quickly, that my air wings would literally always be out of org anyways.

4) Enemy air raids make no difference. Generally you manage your troops better, the few % influence the enemy gains by bombing your ground troops is ineffectual.

5) You don't need air wings. Period. Whether you have a few CAS bombing the enemy or you just throw one more division at them, makes about the same difference. So why bother?

6) Strat bombers are almost like rebels, if you really want to stop them, you have to completely blanket your provinces in fighters. But again, it is far easier and rewarding to just conquer Great Britain instead.

7) I never build planes, AA or Heavy-AA and I never research any air-related techs. I just don't seem to need them.

8) CVs are an exception, because they use CAGs as ammunition rather than air wings.


All this is a crying shame, because air forces DID make a tremendous difference in WW2 and somehow I feel this game just doesn't reflect that at all. What do you think? Did you make the same experiences as me? Or the complete opposite?

 

[Count Blue]

7) I never build planes, AA or Heavy-AA and I never research any air-related techs.

So how you expect them to make a difference if you dont research them?

 

[incognitus]

So how you expect them to make a difference if you dont research them?

My points were findings, experiences and conclusions. This one (the second last) was one of the conclusions. My experience has taught me, that I can defeat any country in the game without using my air force. So obviously I will invest my resources in something that I will use.

Plus, I often do what I can to start war as early as possible. As Germany I have once attacked France in early 1937 or late 1936 even. Which means the air force that I had, from the start of the game, was still up to date. Still, it didn't make any difference, so I just stopped using them and overwhelmed France "on foot" instead (as I had barely any tanks at that point).

So, granted, that point you have quoted should read: "I never build planes, AA or Heavy-AA and I never research any air-related techs, anymore."

 

[Count Blue]

Which means the air force that I had, from the start of the game, was still up to date

Up to date compared to what?
I must agan insist, if you havent researched any techs what do you expect?
Of course any effects your air units have at starting techs are miniscule in size then.

Cant say airforce doesnt do it for me.
Heavy bombers that wipe out 10 IC in three runs or get the infra down to 0 are cute when you attack a fortified stronghold like Leningrad or Moskau.
I would say I have seen reliable and decisive airforce in action.

But I dont want to change your mind so stick with what works for you.

 

[incognitus]

So maybe it's a late-game thing then? I'm usually "done" by 1942 or so, so maybe they only develop their full potential late in the game.

I can only extrapolate from my land based-experience, where it simply doesn't matter where a unit is in tech. A 1936 Armour against another 1936 Armour comes out about the same as two 1942 Armours duking it out. I had assumed that the same was the case with air force. So when my 1936 Luftwaffe went up against 1936 French air wings, I assumed that this was representative of later stages.

 

[Count Blue]

So when my 1936 Luftwaffe went up against 1936 French air wings, I assumed that this was representative of later stages.

Yes and no.
It seems they Air war gets a little bit more unpredictable later in the game.
Might have also to do with more and more players entering the battle field.
Other factors as well, the AI driven players will not do the same research then the human player etc.

However I will give you that if your "boots on the ground" are very good led (AKA you know exactly what youre doing landforces wise) you may be able to neglect the air arm very much without severe penalties (AKA loosing the game).

I can not anticipate how one would play a naval game without any air force.

 

[incognitus]

Very true. In my Japan game, NONE of my SAGs have EVER even damaged ANY CV of the Americans during the entire war. Not even the all-cruisers SAGS.

Not that my CV fleet would have done any real damage to the US CVs either. I just can't figure it out. I can't harm them.

 

[Kovax]

Air power is relatively weak in 1936, and really doesn't start becoming a significant factor until at least '41-'43, with a few tech levels and doctrine upgrades. By late war, it's highly effective, and you really don't want to be on the receiving end of a successful bombing campaign in '45.

Earlier, it's still pretty good for opening up another avenue of attack against provinces that are already being hit on the ground. Using infantry (with Engineers) unassisted, and attacking with a total of 9 divisions from 3 provinces, it takes several weeks to punch through the Maginot Line. If I add in a 3xTAC, and have a 3xINT protecting it against French aircraft, that province falls in about a week, with a tiny fraction of the total casualties suffered on my side. I prefer to have one group of 3xTAC bomb by day, and a second group bomb by night, so they get some repair time and still provide round the clock bombardment. It won't win the battle by itself, but can tip the balance pretty significantly. If you're on the receiving end of a tactical bombing mission like that, each run can take out 50-200 troops as well as reduce ORG, and I can't afford to keep bleeding manpower like that without some response.

As for being able to beat the AI without air power, a couple of players have conquered the world with nothing but MIL and a few transports. You don't NEED tanks, you don't NEED artillery, you don't NEED aircraft, and you don't even NEED regular Infantry in this game, but they make it a lot easier. Granted, it doesn't take a massive investment in air power to limit the damage or do some on your own here and there, but there are enough opportunities to use it effectively that I find it well worth a moderate investment.

You don't need to blanket your entire country with Interceptors and AA against Strategic bombing: the AI will choose the same targets over and over as soon as they repair, so you can prioritize those primary locations for your defense (usually Leipzig is one, and Dortmund or a province near it is another, unless you build factories or AA to alter the AI's priorities). If you don't defend against them, STR can bomb out 10-25% of Germany's IC, hitting city after city. If you have a 3xINT on Intercept for that city, they'll do enough damage after 2-3 raids that the AI will need to park the bombers for a couple of weeks for repair. You get hit by a few raids every couple of weeks, rather than day after day after day.

 

[Count Blue]

Very true. In my Japan game, NONE of my SAGs have EVER even damaged ANY CV of the Americans during the entire war. Not even the all-cruisers SAGS.
Not that my CV fleet would have done any real damage to the US CVs either. I just can't figure it out. I can't harm them.

I believe:
You do need "a big bunch of destroyers plus maybe two big boys (BB/BC?) SAG" to catch CVs.

The destroyers make your fleet fast enough, that is if you use enough of them.
So the more small fast ships you put into a fleet the quicker this fleet reacts.

Since DD´s are the fastest ships you need to max them combined with the hitting power of something capable of damaging a CV.
CL´s are slightly slower than DD´s thus making this more difficult. BC are usually faster than BBs so they should fare better.

 

[incognitus]

Ah, I see where I went wront. I put as many big boys into each SAG as I could. So when I could have a maximum auf 13 ships before getting penalised in positioning, I would use 5-6 BB/BC and 7-8 DD.... I will try 2BB and 11 DD next time!

 

[Kovax]

Yes, the game uses AVERAGE fleet speed to determine closing or pulling back. If you've got almost as many slow BBs as fast DDs, the average will be in the middle. I would prefer CA or BC against CVs, due to their higher speed, and a small positioning penalty can be overcome if you can load enough DDs into the group to bump up the speed significantly. Try something like 2xBC+10xDD or even 2xCA+15xDD. An all-CL "zerg rush" can work, especially if you tech rush the engines on the CLs, and massed CL fire can definitely hurt a carrier. You just have to survive long enough to catch the carrier.

I've had some luck with using two fleets, one as a 2xBB+1xCVL+2xCA+6CL, and a second with 2xCA+10xDD arriving a bit later. The BB fleet absorbs most of the punishment, and deals with any opposing capital ships, while the CVL provides at least some cover against the opposing CAGs, and the CLs offer higher survivability and better AA fire. Then the CA/DD fleet shows up and chases the enemy CVs. Not all that effective against true CVs, but it's sunk a couple so far and damaged several more (only another CV seems to work reliably against them), and I've run down and killed numerous CVLs with it.

 

[Wraith11B]

I hate to burst your bubble, but airpower can totally be helpful. Especially for hitting enemy armor with CAS, and TACs against large concentrations of Infantry. It also (more importantly) deals significant organizational damage to the enemy forces, making the fights quicker for your grunts on the ground.

 

[incognitus]

That's good to hear. But it still sounds like a "(really) nice to have" and not like a "must have". If I remember my history books correctly, the Luftwaffe was a game changer from day 1. Not sure if Germany could have done it without it. That is kinda my point, the game should reflect that.

 

[Count Blue]

not like a "must have"..

It becomes one, that is if you do play a long game as GER into 1944 and onwards and you let the US and the UK live that long.
Then they usually start bombing campaigns that you better defend against or your IC is wiped pretty quickly.

Thats at least my experience.
Specially the US can become pretty stubborn.

 

[Wraith11B]

Fighting in the Soviet Union makes it a must-have. You need to reduce their forces rapidly enough to avoid heavy casualties for your forces.

 

[incognitus]

With which country? Germany? Maybe it's because I played on normal difficulty, but apart from the tedium, defeating the SU is really not that hard, I think. Just maintain a solid front-line, form pockets for the occasional annihilation and slowly creep forward...

 

[Animum24]

3) The massive org loss for rebasing air wings makes them useless to me. My front lines move so quickly, that my air wings would literally always be out of org anyways.

A small tip for you: if you want to rebase your aircraft, don't use the rebase command. Use the reserve command instead. It doesn't come with the org loss. The only issue is that it only works within their range, but you can rebase them step by step, if there are airbases on the way.

In general the air force is not necessarily a must have at all times, but it really is a central point if you want to succeed at combined arms warfare. Bombers might not have the biggest influence on single battles, but a coordinated and focused bombing campaign (tactically or strategically) will have an absolutely devastating effect on the enemy as a whole. You can bleed dry the enemy on crucial points of the front and then have a much easier battle. (Taking the Maginot without bomber support is really bloody and not recommended)

And in areas where infra is rather low and there already are bottlenecks for the enemy supply wise, you can easily win the war on that front with a small airbase, 3x CAS/MR/TAC bombers and a concentrated attack on the infra. I have done so several times.

The biggest difference is tech and doctrines. The interaction between the fighters and in the air in general won't change dramatically over the game. But their effect on the ground can be felt immensely. 3x TAC will do 200-400 kills per attack during the mid game and probably stably around 400 later. Now use the example of my typical set up as Germany in 1940-41. I usually have 4 of those groups doing damage on manually selected targets continuously in France and the SU, as I'm able to gain air superiority with my considerable fighter force. This is essential to the effect. I don't know it exactly, but I would say the bombers could then make 3 sorties per day at least. so per day I have this many kills at minimum: 200 * 4 * 3 = 2400 or 2.4 manpower points. If I'm at war with France for 3 months, as my Blitzkrieg hasn't worked out to plan and I have to adopt a war of attrition, I will have dealt 72 points in manpower damage. This might look small, but in the end this is about 10% of Frances manpower reserves gone in only 3 months. I would say this is rather big. At the same time I will have avoided the same attrition due to my air superiority in the West. And on top of this, all this damage would have made it easier to fight the battles as the enemy would not have been able to fight at full strength.

 

[Kovax]

As said, the game is easy enough for GER to conquer the world with just militia and transports. Forget armor, forget air, forget capital ships, forget carriers, forget motorized and elite units, and so on. They're not "needed"......but they can help.....a LOT.

Air units historically were decisively applied by GER in the early stages of the war as part of a combined-arms approach, NOT principally as an independent form of attack, and CAN be applied with almost equal effect if you use them to help break units that your ground units are engaging. The planes not only reduce morale, but reduce Strength, meaning less of the enemy to shoot back at your ground units, and then the reduced ORG means that they break and run sooner. They won't win the war by themselves, and didn't for Germany in WWII. Attacking from 3 provinces is effective; attacking from 3 province plus air is more effective. Attacking from air alone will result in the opponent simply replacing most of the losses overnight, but WILL reduce their manpower pool eventually. I've seen posts about players bombing the SU's manpower pool to zero in 2 years without serious ground combat; that's not "ineffectual".

The bigger issue is that you're using 1936 techs and doctrines in 1936-'37, not waiting until the round of 1939 techs and doctrines raises their effectiveness considerably. While ground units gain increasing ability to hit back against other ground units, their AA values remain largely unchanged (unless they have dedicated AA brigades attached). Your air units will hit significantly harder in 1939 than in 1936, but take no additional damage from those ground units in return. Air is weak in 1936, moderately effective in 1939 (Germany used it in Poland in 1939, then in France in 1940), and will become increasingly deadly as the game progresses. A 1936 air unit against 1936 ground targets has a noticeably different balance than 1939 air against 1939 ground.

 

[Palmerdale]

I find that the Air units operate better against naval units in this game. Port Strikes can catch a lot of the AI ships in port and do really massive damage quickly. It works better for some countries than others, naturally. CAS have a short range, probably too short. But that can be countered with airfields. CAG need a lot of disciplines to get their ORG and MOR up. And planes tend to be very dependent on equipment. A modern plane punishes an older plan consistently. Using an air force is a commitment from the player -- your air force will only perform as your technology allows.

 

[Kovax]

Your air doctrines are also very important. Once ORG is depleted, units take all additional hits to Strength, and that costs IC and time for repairs. The initial +1 firepower tech boosts may seem small, but a +1 bonus to a 4 or 5 base value is a 20-25% increase. Add 10% ORG due to Pilot Training and a 5% attack bonus for the Interception mission doctrine, and that 1936 tech plane is going to get shredded, or require 3:2 numerical odds to fight on a somewhat even basis. As Palmerdale says, "Using an air force is a commitment from the player", but one that can pay back solid dividends down the road. It doesn't pay off the sizable investment for several years, though.