My observations on weird AE and non-coalitions

[shaldon]

I know a lot of people are moaning about AE - I don't really have a problem with it, but I will lay out the 'worst' case of strange AE from my almost-complete Prussia game:

As Prussian Emperor, I took two Italian provinces from the Papacy (Modena and Romagna) as well as making them release Venice (in the heel of Italy somewhere...). My intention was to bring Romagna into the Empire (Modena already was), convert both to Protestant and sell them to Tuscany or Milan.

After the peace, I got 45 AE with Milan who formed a coalition against me. Snce I'd passed the Perpetual Peace Imperial reform, I wasn't too worried and knew I could just sit it out. But here's the thing - I sold them both provinces, and it had no effect on my AE with Milan. It stayed at the full amount reducing by 3.5 a year or whatever. Couldn't they freakin see I was doing them a favour??

On coalitions - again I've experienced no showstopping 'oh no the game is broken' issues - but my big observation was that the Ottomans have been allowed to run absolute riot, annexing Tunisia, Crimea and Baluchistan, completely taking over the Mamluks, smashing into Ukraine and Hungary. Only one or two people ever joined coalitions against the Ottos and those coalitions disbanded quickly. I'm surprised there is not more alarm amongst the Ottoman's neighbours. Surely at least Russia (also massive in my game) should be interested in Crimea? I only have to turn on the news, to see that that's the case ....

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ottomans could take 3000 provinces belonging to off-culture Sunnis and the Russians wouldn't flinch. There are multipliers that affect AE.

 

[MadDjinn]

... and as long as Russia doesn't 'directly' border them, they won't take the AE.

On the Russian Crimea point -> I've seen Russia take the mission to get the lands, but then just refuse to use it, ever. It might have something to do with the Ottomans backing up Crimea.

 

[fleetothemoon]

Unfortunately, selling a province to the AI has no direct effect on relationship whatsoever. AE gain is based on the provinces you acquired through conquest. What happens after you got those provinces in a peace deal doesn't matter.

The issue with Otto is that AE gain modifier is tied to religion, culture and possibly region. As long as Otto is rampaging around North Africa etc pooping on Islamic powers, Christian nations simply won't care. The Muslim nations that do care will never be able to form an effective coalition anyway. The same is for Russia. They can swallow Novgorod, take out Lithuania, conquer the steppes and no Catholic nations will bat an eye really.

 

[shaldon]

So yeah, some tweaks would be nice. Just cos the huge bully power crushing everything in its path is not the same religion, doesn't mean they are not a danger, surely.

And it would be nice if selling someone a province that earnt you AE with them could reduce it - guess that means storing more stuff in the database however. Or just reduce it by a smaller amount regardless of what province it is.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So yeah, some tweaks would be nice. Just cos the huge bully power crushing everything in its path is not the same religion, doesn't mean they are not a danger, surely.

Currently, the coalition mechanic is designed not to stop dangers, but to punish rapid conquest of similar religion/culture groups, and usually the punishment is tedium rather than threat unless you do it too soon.

Whether you think that's good design or not is another matter, but that's the design right now.

 

[winsingtonIII]

So yeah, some tweaks would be nice. Just cos the huge bully power crushing everything in its path is not the same religion, doesn't mean they are not a danger, surely.

To clarify, I don't think this is quite how it works.

As far as I know, it doesn't matter what the religion of the nation doing the expansion is, what matters is the religion, culture, continent, and HRE status (for HRE members) of the provinces the expansionist power is taking/of the nation being annexed/vassalized, as compared to the nation gaining AE against them.

So, if I am Orthodox Russia, taking Protestant, Swedish provinces will really piss off Protestant Sweden (same religion and culture), will somewhat piss off Catholic Denmark (different culture but same culture group, different religion but same religion group), and Sunni Crimea probably wouldn't care (different religion/culture groups entirely). Distance is also a factor, but I'm not really sure how it gets calculated (I'm guessing it is based on the distance from the provinces/nation being taken in the peace deal to the nation gaining AE against the aggressor).

This explains why the Ottomans can run amok in the Middle East and Europe won't care. As long as they aren't taking Christian, European provinces, they aren't really gaining AE with the Europeans.

 

[shaldon]

Well they are deep into Hungary and Lithuania and border Bohemia at the moment. I see they've claimed all 4 Bohemian border provinces so I'm hoping they attack and it can all kick off, finally.

 

[Hummer]

On coalitions - again I've experienced no showstopping 'oh no the game is broken' issues - but my big observation was that the Ottomans have been allowed to run absolute riot, annexing Tunisia, Crimea and Baluchistan, completely taking over the Mamluks, smashing into Ukraine and Hungary. Only one or two people ever joined coalitions against the Ottos and those coalitions disbanded quickly. I'm surprised there is not more alarm amongst the Ottoman's neighbours. Surely at least Russia (also massive in my game) should be interested in Crimea?

I've seen this too. Ottomans gigantic, covering the nearly entire Mediterranean plus middle east with no one in a coalition against them. But myself as Germany, has a coalition of nearly every nation in Europe including Russia, France and even far away Portugal. As all ready mentioned, I believe it has to do with culture and possibly religion. I would really like to see an explanation on how AE and coalitions are calculated. This also includes the fact that a nation like the Netherlands has AE of 50, but Austria has AE of 200 and I have never taken a province off of either. This AE gathered is from taking provinces from Switzerland, Poland and Bohemia. Yet I border both Netherlands and Austria. Perhaps there's a multiplying factor of distance from the province annexed or vassalized...

I've had nations with AE of 20 join a coalition against me and nations with AE of 70 not join. There must be other determining factors but I have yet to figure out what they are. Perhaps military strength, relations, allies...

 

[StatikShocker]

I guess its probably not true, but ai doesn't seem to get coalitions. even the most atrocious acts, like ottomans taking 100% war score out of austria, cause no reprecussions. try doing that as a human... adn you'll feel the wrath. I check the coalition map mode for other countries constantly. its always 0 AE with everyone. I watch france eat half the hre in one war, pull up the map mode after the peace deal, and they have 0 ae!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

AE gain is well documented here by bleakie, and is factored with religion/culture/distance for certain.

What makes AI join/leave coalitions at high thresholds is not something I've seen clearly described, ever. I've seen them join coalitions at ~10 AE while barely having a negative opinion, and I've seen them *leave* coalitions despite hating my guts, at almost 100 AE, and everything in between. It's hard to pin down the factors there.

 

[Hummer]

So, if I am Orthodox Russia, taking Protestant, Swedish provinces will really piss off Protestant Sweden (same religion and culture), will somewhat piss off Catholic Denmark (different culture but same culture group, different religion but same religion group), and Sunni Crimea probably wouldn't care (different religion/culture groups entirely). Distance is also a factor, but I'm not really sure how it gets calculated (I'm guessing it is based on the distance from the provinces/nation being taken in the peace deal to the nation gaining AE against the aggressor).

This explains why the Ottomans can run amok in the Middle East and Europe won't care. As long as they aren't taking Christian, European provinces, they aren't really gaining AE with the Europeans.

This makes sense as to how the game is playing out but I don't think it's correct. Europe should care if the Ottomans dominate the Mediterranean and become too large. That also doesn't explain why there isn't a coalition against the Otto's of Sunni or Shiite nations. I've seen them dominate the middle east too. Why don't Persia or the Mamlucks join a coalition against the Ottos? I've seen the Mamlucks down to 2 provinces and they aren't in a coalition against the Ottos. Similar culture, religion etc....

Cheers

 

[gaius valerius]

I share the OP's observations. Ottomans are rarely faced with coalitions I don't mind though since they always attain a more or less historical size haha I like a strong Ottomans to bash the Russians and Austrians a bit, and vice versa being the former I like the Ottomans to be big to offer me a challenge. I'm also confused on the mechanics to reduce AE by releasing provinces/returning cores. I wage wars were I take land but generally also have others release provinces but it never seems to matter squat on the AE rating.

AE isn't transparent. The end

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I share the OP's observations. Ottomans are rarely faced with coalitions I don't mind though since they always attain a more or less historical size haha I like a strong Ottomans to bash the Russians and Austrians a bit, and vice versa being the former I like the Ottomans to be big to offer me a challenge. I'm also confused on the mechanics to reduce AE by releasing provinces/returning cores. I wage wars were I take land but generally also have others release provinces but it never seems to matter squat on the AE rating.

AE isn't transparent. The end

It's worse than just "not transparent". The UI actively misrepresents AE accrual, giving a progressive list of countries that will get it based on your action but leaving critical ones out in order to show small ones with small amounts of AE gained. Thus, in some respects the consequences of your action are hidden from you while you are given false/misleading information. Certainly, a new player seeing an AE listing from 60 down to 5 would not expect there to actually be 4 other countries in the 50 range joining the coalition a few seconds later, all unlisted in the peace deal menu...

 

[Juggernaught]

I took 3 Andalucian provinces from Castille as Granada and Portugal entered a coalition against me with Castille.
My ally Aragon also broke our alliance and rivaled me. They all have better military and base tax. AE and coalition mechanics are extremely lame atm.

 

[gaius valerius]

It's worse than just "not transparent". The UI actively misrepresents AE accrual, giving a progressive list of countries that will get it based on your action but leaving critical ones out in order to show small ones with small amounts of AE gained. Thus, in some respects the consequences of your action are hidden from you while you are given false/misleading information. Certainly, a new player seeing an AE listing from 60 down to 5 would not expect there to actually be 4 other countries in the 50 range joining the coalition a few seconds later, all unlisted in the peace deal menu...

That really really really sucks for purposes of gameplay

 

[winsingtonIII]

This makes sense as to how the game is playing out but I don't think it's correct. Europe should care if the Ottomans dominate the Mediterranean and become too large. That also doesn't explain why there isn't a coalition against the Otto's of Sunni or Shiite nations. I've seen them dominate the middle east too. Why don't Persia or the Mamlucks join a coalition against the Ottos? I've seen the Mamlucks down to 2 provinces and they aren't in a coalition against the Ottos. Similar culture, religion etc....

Cheers

While Shiite and Sunni are in the same religion group, I think they are technically different religions as far as I can tell for the purposes of AE. Checking in the files, there is only one AE modifier based on religion, which is called "same religion" so I think heresies count as different religions, drastically reducing AE.


As for why they don't form a coalition. I think the fact the Mameluke's capital is in Africa doesn't help, it means that they count as being on a different continent than the rest of the Middle Eastern powers for purposes of AE. Beyond that, most of the Middle Eastern countries do not share the same primary culture, which reduces AE for the Ottos as well.

EDIT: Also, if the Ottos are dominating the Med. by taking the North African coastline, no the European powers will not care, because Algiers, Tunisia, Tripoli, and Morocco are not Christian, European nations. Whether or not this makes sense is certainly debatable, but it is the result of the way the AE system works.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

While Shiite and Sunni are in the same religion group, I think they are technically different religions as far as I can tell for the purposes of AE. Checking in the files, there is only one AE modifier based on religion, which is called "same religion" so I think heresies count as different religions, drastically reducing AE.

They are different religions, but same group. That will reduce the multiplier there, but will not eliminate it.

 

[winsingtonIII]

They are different religions, but same group. That will reduce the multiplier there, but will not eliminate it.

Looking in the files, while there are two different modifiers for "same culture" and "same culture group" for AE, there is only one modifier for religion, called "same religion." Maybe I am reading the files wrong, or missing something, but it seems like, for purposes of AE, it only matters if the nations are the same religion, not the same religion group.

 

[unmerged(65679)]

AE weird......F yeah....I just vassalized a OPM Tuscany (home capital ferrara I think) and I got -50 AE on virtually everybody in Italy. I didn't annex I just vassalized.

Wow what hope do countries in Italy have of uniting the places when AE is that insane? Imagine annexing places you'd be on 100+ AE from 2 provinces and rouhgly 60 years to burn that off.