My Granada in 1.8

[Mztr44]

I only tried Granada once before prior to 1.8 and found it a terrific pain to get started and gave up on it. It seemed to all hinge on whether you got a diplo rep advisor and were able to secure an alliance with the Ottomans.

I've decided to go ahead and try it out again in 1.8 since I like playing underdog nations. It's like working out a puzzle that has randomly shaped pieces every attempt.

For one attempt, I secured an alliance with all 3 of the major Berber nations, Morocco, Tlemcen, and Tunis. This didn't work out, Castile with Portuguese alliance declared war and Morocco gave me the finger, game over. I tried other attempts where I got the diplo rep advisor and lived long enough to raise relations to 100 but there was just seemingly no way to get an alliance with the Ottomans, not even a royal marriage which would have boosted relations enough to do so. I don't think I could have done it even if I took out a ton of loads to bribe them.

Here is my current attempt which MIGHT work out.

I decided to try a double alliance sandwich on Tlemcen, where I got Tunis and Morocco as allies and made a claim on Oujda. I thought I might be screwed when Portugal with Castile allies attacked Morocco. I declined that war though and went after Tlemcen with just Tunis, figuring that if at least all I got was Oujda, I might be able to continue on if I lose my provinces in Iberia. Tlemcen was allied with Fezzan and Touggourt. In the middle of the Portuguese war for Tangiers, Aragon with Papal State attacked Castile. I briefly considered declaring my own war but it didn't look like Aragon was putting up a strong enough fight. Tunis occupied Fezzan and I force vassalized them to get them out of the war. We then went on to siege down Tlemcen. Tunis did a separate peace and took a claimed province, I finished up sieging them out and took my claim along with a force vassalization. So now i'm in a position where i'll be able to diplo annex Fezzan and Tlemcen for a strong position in North Africa. As a bonus, since I have a vassal that borders the Mamluks, I was able to turn the Mamluks into a rival. In turn this gave me a boost to Ottoman relations and with the help of a diplo rep advisor and a guarantee I was able to secure an alliance and marriage with the Ottomans.

So my current goal is to first annex Fezzan and begin making claims on the Mamluks, using the Ottoman rivalry to increase my territory and make a push all the way to Alexandria.

I'm wondering whether I should stall my tech and go for an early Westernization? My first ruler died rather early, but sired a 4/6/5 heir who I think would be perfect for doing just that. If not, i'm thinking of doing Influence->Administrative ideas to start and conquer into the Arabian peninsula and try to grow large enough to secure an alliance with France so I can take Iberia.

 

[Boodas]

If you do plan on westernizing do it while you are small

 

[MeatPirate]

If you're lucky enough to get an early ARA-CAS war I would jump on them. Merc up and help ARA in their battles. You will end up with huge debt, but once you've won the first big battles you can manipulate the war to get the Andalusian lands to flip to you before you peace. You'll have to switch to Catholic though, which sort of ruins the flavor of the achievement IMO.

 

[Mztr44]

If you're lucky enough to get an early ARA-CAS war I would jump on them. Merc up and help ARA in their battles. You will end up with huge debt, but once you've won the first big battles you can manipulate the war to get the Andalusian lands to flip to you before you peace. You'll have to switch to Catholic though, which sort of ruins the flavor of the achievement IMO.

A lot dependent on that. Castile and Portugal are a bit more wealthy in 1.8 and field larger armies. I could see it happening if circumstances happened just right where Portugal allies Castile and declares on Morocco and they both shuttle some troops over and then hope Aragon declares on Castile. Which I saw happen, where they both moved over at least 12k troops each, Castile still fought them off, not sure how close it was though. I'll give it a shot though a couple times and see how it works out. The game in my OP went flat. Ottomans wouldn't take the mission for Constantinople and thus didn't gain the necessary BT and trade power to field a large enough navy to scare off Castile & Portugal who ended up declaring on me. The first time I just held out forever (like 12-15 years) and got them to peace for ducats, but it was expensive and 20 war exhaustion takes a long time to recover from. The second time, Ottomans peaced out after a while and I gave up. I also discovered that Fezzan can't be annexed because it's too far away to core.

Trying another game right now, I did the same thing but took Dahra instead and Fezzan is still too far. Oddly enough, Benghazi which shares the same sea tile can be cored. Ottomans still haven't taken Constantinople though so that's worrisome, though they are consolidating eastern Anatolia nicely. I'm integrating Tlemcen right now, and Fezzan has a claim on Benghazi. So i'm just waiting for Ottomans to wrap up their current war, make sure they have good manpower, WE, and money, and will go to war for Fezzan's claim so that I can integrate them. Castile hasn't declared yet at least, so i've got a thin hope...

 

[MeatPirate]

A lot dependent on that. Castile and Portugal are a bit more wealthy in 1.8 and field larger armies. I could see it happening if circumstances happened just right where Portugal allies Castile and declares on Morocco and they both shuttle some troops over and then hope Aragon declares on Castile. Which I saw happen, where they both moved over at least 12k troops each, Castile still fought them off, not sure how close it was though. I'll give it a shot though a couple times and see how it works out.

Yeah I haven't tried in 1.8 yet but reread your post and I think they'll need a stronger alliance than just the Papal States. There hasn't been much hope in trapping them in Africa for a few patches, I can't imagine that's any easier now.

Maybe I'm biased since my successful run depended on the Navarra subjugation war, it's still the best (if lucky) option if flavor matters to you (no fleeing). I didn't use the rebel trick, but Aragon ate a huge chunk of Spain making the next conquest doable and then I was off running. Aragon seems to falter trying to fool around in Italy so they're not too much of a worry.

 

[Mztr44]

Yeah I haven't tried in 1.8 yet but reread your post and I think they'll need a stronger alliance than just the Papal States. There hasn't been much hope in trapping them in Africa for a few patches, I can't imagine that's any easier now.

Maybe I'm biased since my successful run depended on the Navarra subjugation war, it's still the best (if lucky) option if flavor matters to you (no fleeing). I didn't use the rebel trick, but Aragon ate a huge chunk of Spain making the next conquest doable and then I was off running. Aragon seems to falter trying to fool around in Italy so they're not too much of a worry.

I think i'm being too stubborn in trying to keep Gibraltar, Granada and Almeria. Without extra cheesy gameplay and/or luck, I don't think it's realistic for me to expect to hold onto them against two or three of the top nations. Just managing to escape to North Africa and grabbing two or three vassals is not a terrible position to be in. Especially with an Ottoman alliance against the Mamluks. To a degree they can be controlled on how much/fast they eat the Mamluks by declaring war before they do and forcing them into truces. The Alexandria trade node can be made decently rich by pulling through the Gulf of Aden->Ceylon->Bengal. I suppose i'll try it that way tomorrow. Go down, consolidate Arabia and come back in 100-150 years or so for some payback.

 

[PiriReis]

Keep us updated.

 

[HwT]

How willing are the French to forming an alliance? My successful Granada game in 1.7. relied on that alliance. I was able to form it with diprep advisor, improving relations (you can improve twice the speed when you recall and reassign the diplomat every month), guarantee, common rivals etc. and recruiting lots units to improve army size modifier for the alliance (had to take loans and go way over the force limit and near bankruptcy).

If you manage to get the alliance, be careful not to let France make separate peace when fighting in your wars. In my game, after beating Castille/Aragon, it was a real nightmare taking Navarra from the BBB (which they had peaced out with earlier in our wars with the Iberian powers).

 

[Denkt]

Alliances are a bit stronger because of the new rules so get a strong if not multiple allies.
Maybe try to go for a trade heavy strategy, dominate asia and use wealth to defeat the Wester nations.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

All-in on Castile if they fight Aragon/Portugal won't work in 1.8 because after they fight Portugal they'll re-ally them and Portugal will come wreck you. Short of relying on the diprep + France crutch (don't know if that's viable still in 1.8), you can still use East Africa or India. If going East Africa, pick on a Coptic nation that Ethiopia won't usually ally, ally the Mamluks to grow, then betray them when the Ottos attack them and beat the Ottomans to Syria. If you have all that land you can come back for Iberia no problem. If going India, just grab the continent there and go back to beat on the Iberians, though note if you have land in India it'll be harder to cheese out a late alliance with France to pre-land troops it'll still be pretty straightforward.

 

[Mztr44]

French alliance seems near impossible, I can't look at it from work but iirc they have near a 70 penalty to forming an alliance, the bulk of it coming from army size, navy size, and wrong religion. By comparison, Ottomans have a penalty of 50 and that one can barely be overcome with a few tricks. It seems like alliances are a little more difficult to secure sometimes in 1.8. I'll see how close I can get if I go into near bankruptcy.

like I said last night, it's looking like my best bet is to do an African land grab with Tlemcen and Fezzan as vassals at a minimum. Then let go of my Iberian provinces and shift my base of operations to Alexandria to conquer Arabian peninsula and northeast Africa. It would be like my Oman game only easier because except for Ethiopia, it's all sunni already, so no need to convert. Which means I can go full negative piety all the time for tech bonus.

 

[Mztr44]

I finally got my Granada going successfully. I used my sandwich alliance again, only this time I got a little lucky in that Tlemcen pulled in Fezzan, Touggourt, and Djerid as allies, then Mzab attacked Touggourt and when I force vassalized them I was able to pick up the war against them and vassalize Mzab as well. Within the first ten years or so I had 5 vassals and forging my alliance with Ottomans. The Ottos took Constantinople unlike in my other attempt, so they were able to field a large enough army and navy to keep Castile at bay for a good long time, until 1490ish or so, which gave me plenty of time to annex all the vassals and conquer Alexandria. Castile must have read my mind as I was considering moving my capital to Alexandria due to getting overseas penalty from anything east of Benghazi and they attacked before I could accumulate enough Admin points to do so.

The Ottomans helped, a little. They sent troops to Benghazi and then dropped another batch in Ceuta, smashing the better part of Castile's navy at the same time. With Ceuta and Tangiers sieged down, I was able to force out Portugal, but it wasn't enough and the huge WE penalty for sieged Granada was too much to overcome. The Otto troops in Benghazi paid off since they killed the 3x12 egyptian rebellion that erupted for me. I ended up losing Gibraltar and Almeria and a few ducats I couldn't protect by buying stuff to cancel after the peace.

For a small window of time I got a random event +1 Diplo Rep bonus, and if a Diplo Rep advisor had been available, I could have broken my alliance with the Ottomans (was getting -50 great power ally penalty) and buttered up France just enough to become and ally and then picked the Ottos back up.

I'm a teensy bit behind in Mil tech, but thats just ruler RNG, it will catch up in the next 20 years or so as I fill out my military ideas for a larger tech bonus. I'm focusing Admin right now so I can hit Admin tech 12 and upgrade my government for a higher passive autonomy bonus. Morocco has done me the favor of colonizing Tuat so a land connection has been opened up to the African interior that I can use.

For ideas I chose Influence->Administrative->Quantity. I went with Quantity because the Arabian peninsula is pretty weak in manpower, and since most of my future conquests will be against equal or lower tech, i'd rather have a mass of cheap troops to throw around and pick up either Offensive or Quality later to make them a little more durable.