My enemies civil wars: the bane of my existence

[Trithemius]

Sometimes a well-timed civil war amongst your opponent is a grand thing, a huge foe is suddenly cut down into manageable chunks and some of their army is distracted fighting the other parts.

HOWEVER sometimes it is a real pain!

I am beginning to suspect that the Hosokawa AI is using exploitable mechanics! As the Kono I am battling away with them, finally having defeated them in the field and now starting to win sieges... and they split into warring factions. Abruptly my plans of attack and advance are gone and... worse yet!... the rebel faction now seems to control all the sieges when their troops arrive! I inadvertantly support them in winning their civil war and they promptly steal the Hosokawa Clan Regalia - with one key difference: I am no longer at war with them.

So, I build my levies, cultivate some friends, sort out some marriage issues, and declare war again when my honour has recovered somewhat. The field battles are a close thing but I beat them in the Decisive Battle and get ready to start sieges and...
they split into warring factions again!


I'd like to suggest some more options around civil warring groups - like a choice to offer support, a choice to see if they breakaway group will join your clan, and a choice to treat them all alike and stay at war with both factions. Currently it seems that civil wars can be a get of of annexation free card and this surely doesn't make a lot of sense! Civil wars amongst your enemies should be opportunities that you do your best to engineer, not dread!

Anyone else been burned by your enemies stopping to fight each other rather than you?

 

[InanimateJ]

I like to play the opportunistic vulture. If I plan to attack someone, I hope for a civil war first, then attack the losing side. I've been playing as the Uku clan based on the island of Goto near Kyushu in my latest game, and it was basically the only way I could capture territory. The Shoni had a clan secede, and the Ouchi collapsed after a protracted civil war (I took out their breakaway faction personally.) I've never seen a clan break into a civil war while I was already warring with them, however.

 

[Blxz]

As the chosokabe recently a mega otomo civil-war'ed. I went in to take land and when i saw my troops taking massive attrition realised the same thing was happening that you described. Mega rebel-otomo stacks were coming in and taking over the seige and causing huge attrition for my forces. Ended up losing me the game.

Not sure how to fix it though other than to not allow them to steal my seiges!

 

[Blastaz]

I think you should have the option by event of waring for free any clans that break away from/civil war a clan you are at war with.

 

[unmerged(383227)]

And if you choose not to war with the breaking clan, you could gain honor. Something like:

- I'll respect their independency. +5 honor
- War war war! <player> declares on <breaking clan> (Player gains "Ruthless" maybe?)

 

[autumnTwilight]

I like Fuyuko's event, and would also like to see something like this for when a new clan forms out of a clan you are currently at war with.

I was at war with the Uesugi. I managed to beat back their armies and was sieging 6 or 7 provinces when the Nagao clan broke free. I instantly lost 4 of my sieges because I was not at war with Nago.

I could have declared on Nagao, but that would have been another 28 honor since they were a "much smaller clan." I am fine with some honor cost (5-15 maybe) to stay at war with them, but paying full price to stay at war with someone I was already attacking, besieging, and whom I did not sign a peace with seems a bit much.

I believe starting a civil war or breaking away while your liege is at war should give you the possibility that the warring parties will decide to let you go, but they should be also be able to hunt you down and pursue the war they originally paid for or got declared on for.

 

[InanimateJ]

I was at war with the Uesugi. I managed to beat back their armies and was sieging 6 or 7 provinces when the Nagao clan broke free. I instantly lost 4 of my sieges because I was not at war with Nago.

I actually managed to use a reverse of this situation to steal a province away from an AI clan beseiging a mutual enemy. By forcing a subjugation victory that was accepted, I received control of the besieged province even though the other clan was leading the siege.

It is kind of weird that you can have an army at someone's gates, and they can go "Oh hey we're not working for our masters anymore!" and your army goes "Okay well we'll leave you alone now." Especially considering that until the moment they broke free, the state of war existed between the two characters, so one would consider that animosity might have already developed.

An event like the one suggested by Fuyuko would definitely give a better flavour to the idea of clans breaking free from a warring clan as if they might not agree with the war, but not completely eliminate the risk of the opposing clan continuing the war with them out of principle.

 

[Trithemius]

I'd like a multi-choice option that lets you try and lure the rebels to your side (power + honour + diplomacy checks likely required!)

 

[theTak]

I haven't been boned by the situation, but I've had it happen deep into territory of a clan I had just launched an attack on. I was Shimazu (sp?) and the larger dark-grey clan to the north (not Kono, I don't think...need a map in front of me!) was my target. Since I had just declared I only really ended up having to send troops to one or two different locations but it did affect my plans.

Some sort of event trigger like Fuyuko described would be awesome. It's not like we're un-prepared to engage them since we are already at war with their larger parent clan, it's really only the Honor cost.

I'm curious if/when any similar situation occurred historically and how it may have been handled by the aggressor clan!

 

[Ritzzz]

And if you choose not to war with the breaking clan, you could gain honor. Something like:

- I'll respect their independency. +5 honor
- War war war! <player> declares on <breaking clan> (Player gains "Ruthless" maybe?)

Yea this would be a good suggestion.

On a similar note, let's say a big blob, eg otomo, plunges into civil war while being at war with all its neighbours. My gripe is that the moment the rebel side wins the civil war ( which it should since the non-rebel side is being ganked ) and becomes the new otomo, an auto ceasefire is enforced on all its neighbours which were at war with it. From what i read somewhere, this is a bug right?

 

[autumnTwilight]

Something similar I ran into today while playing... I was in my 3rd war with Uesugi, and this time I was going to finish him off. Nagao, Shiba, Satake were also at war with Uesugi, but I was doing the hard work. I took out his armies and sieged 12 of his last 14 provinces. Then all of a sudden, all the provinces turned to Shiba. I do not mind Uesugi surrendering provinces it has control of, but I arguably had control over 12 provinces. Of course, I also did not have the honor needed to declare on someone whose territory I was already in (or much less the 28 I needed after I left).

It would be nice to get an event chain for this. Uesugi surrenders, Shiba either lets me have my sieges or petitions me to turn them over to him (since Uesugi is now his vassal), I give up the territory or I refuse (cost honor), Shiba can either then let it go or declare war for the territory (cost some honor). Or at the very least, modify the subjugation mechanic so that a clan, upon subjugation, gives all of its uncontested territory to the subjugating clan and its contested territory to whomever controls the siege.