My constructive criticism on how focus trees are designed, specifically in regards to alt-history.

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merulaalba

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This may be a controversial take, but here goes...

I've consistently supported limiting the alt-history focus tree paths for several nations (e.g. no communist path for Japan, no fascist or non-aligned path for the Soviet Union, no fascist path for most democratic countries, etc.), but every time I do, I get replies saying how that would remove all the fun of alt-history paths, and when I respond by saying that alt-history should be limited to only plausible historical contexts I get backlash on that. It seems that Paradox agree with these people, because they consistently keep putting in alt-history paths even when they make absolutely no sense - it's ridiculous that Japan has a communist path but Germany - the country that actually had a communist uprising 18 years before the game's start date and had multiple socialist and communist political parties - doesn't. Japan was historically one of the most violently and ideologically opposed countries in the world to communism, especially by the time the game starts where the country was run by a quasi-fascist military dictatorship.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd be pretty strict on limiting alt-history, and instead put all the devs' time and effort into massively fleshing out the current ideology/politics of each nation rather than making four smaller and less detailed paths. I'd love if each ideology had multiple branches within the one ideology, say for example for democracies you can pursue centrist policies, centre-right policies, far-right policies, centre-left policies, or far-left policies, all without actually having to convert to fascism or communism. Give the player some choice in how they want their country to develop, not just be red, blue, orange or grey.

Countries aren't such monolithic, binary entities in real life where being democratic means they always follow the same socioeconomic policies as every other democracy. Some democracies are considerably more left-wing than others. I mean look at the UK for example - in most of the game's time period it was ruled by the Conservative Party, exemplified by arguably the single most conservative modern British PM, Churchill; but then following his premiership, the Labour Party was voted in by a landslide and their PM, Clement Attlee, was arguably Britain's most progressive and left-wing premier to date, introducing a multitude of socialist policies and completely changing the UK's socioeconomic environment, but all completely within the same democratic framework that had years of conservative rule.

But HoI4 doesn't really let us do anything like that. Instead, you usually only get one type of approach you can pursue with each ideology - the democrats are all progressive, the fascists are all extremely right-wing, the communists are all extremely left-wing, the non-aligned... do whatever the hell they want, I guess. There's almost no room for alternative paths within these historical ideologies. Several mods address this - one of the best being Calm Before the Storm, which adds huge and multi-faceted focus trees for several countries, the best being for the UK, Germany and the USSR. In each of these countries you can choose what type of each ideology you want; whether you want to be a moderate centrist, or lean either right or left, or go full-speed to the extreme of either political stance, but all within each ideology. As Stalin you can choose to continue hardcore oppressive Marxist-Leninism, or choose to gradually soften and liberalise the USSR as eventually happened in the 1950s. Similarly, with Germany, you can be a far-right party and institute many of these policies without being a full-on Nazi, just like you can be a far-left party and introduce many socialist policies without being a communist.

This is how focus trees should be done, in my opinion, not the current approach of "I'm a communist but now I want to be a fascist so ill just click a couple of buttons and completely reshape the social, political and economic landscape of my country overnight lmao".

Anyway.... that's my two cents.


I agree with you at all points. Alt history is no problem if it is done right. But PDX seems to go the way of "let's make the most outlandish alt-history options, so we can push all those funny achievements, and meme material"

Alt history became a thing for PDX after Kaiserreich's huge success. Sadly the devs did not learn a lot of the internal logic of Kaiserreich alt-history paths.

Yugoslavia's focus tree rework is a great example of how PDX approaches the subject (wrong). You can have a royal marriage (and that is even advertised as a cool feature) with several choices. BUT, Tito's partisans, and in general communist path (so the real thing, that happened in history), is very bland, and generic.

Is there any mod that corrects focus trees, and makes alt-history, more plausible?
 
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Ironside112

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I used to be in the same boat as you, before I realised HOI4 is for some reason the only Paradox game where stuff like this happens as it does. Wanna do a WC as the Dutch in EU4? Go for it, nothing's stopping you. And that's the way I think people should look at focus trees, not as a "This is 100% plausible" but more as just something fun to do. The only think I can ask in regards to outlandish alt-history such as communist Japan or a reunited A-H empire would just be to make it more challenging, if you want to create a communist revolution in Japan from the ground up have it be impacted on how the Chinese war is going, stuff like that creates more engagement as the game goes on. In all honesty as far as I'm concerned it's just a game at the end of the day and HOI4 shouldn't be held to different rules regarding alt-history than say, EU4 or Victoria II is, if that makes sense.

And like someone put in earlier, formables as they are currently are the least realistic thing in the game and I wish there was more engagement in regards to them when it comes to actually forming countries.

Alt history became a thing for PDX after Kaiserreich's huge success. Sadly the devs did not learn a lot of the internal logic of Kaiserreich alt-history paths.

You say that, but Kaiserreich is ultimately way easier to do alt-history of because they have the ability to go back and change variables to set up the ability for these alt-history paths, because it's alt-history itself. Paradox doesn't exactly have the ability to go back and rectify OTL to make a fascist revolution in Russia plausible, do they? xD
 
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Reman

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In my opinion replayability is not much of an issue for this game. Let's take the most extreme case (not that I'm advocating for it) of each country having just a single political focus path. Assuming a full match takes 8 to 12 hours, that's already 90 hours of gameplay in the base game playing each focus tree just once. This even ignores the variations already possible outside of the focus tree like abandoning/defending the French mainland as Britain or playing multiplayer.
I think raising the quality is more important than stretching the length of the game.
I wouldn't say this is an issue of "quality vs quantity" as much as it is one of prioritization. It's not immediately obvious to me that limiting alt history focuses would suddenly make focus trees have higher quality.

Replayability is very much a concern if you're as passionate about Paradox's games as I am. A 90 hour experience would be great for almost any other genre, but for Paradox's games it would be flat-out unacceptable. I know your 90 hour mark is conservative in a lot of ways (e.g. only the base game, no repeat playthroughs), but it also assumes all the focus trees are worth playing in the first place. For instance, I hardly ever play as the USA or USSR since they curb-stomp everybody from day one, and I don't player others like Hungary which are excessively reliant on RNG and the AI doing specific things to have proper pacing. Also, you must play quite slowly if an average match for you takes 8-12 hours. The average for me is 3-5, e.g. for an RP Fascist Germany game it's 1hr for buildup, 2hrs to capitulate SOV+FRA+ENG, then maybe another 2hrs to capitulate USA+JAP+CHI if I want to go that far. These numbers assume a good deal of micromanagement on my part for tank divisions and airports.
 

TalyonUngol

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I think japans trees is just terrible to begin with. The way ita designed is awful period.

Italy. Japan. USA. Ussr. All have boring trees. Just italy and japan are more fun with their positions then america or Soviets.
 
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merulaalba

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hmh...ITA is vanilla tree, USSR too. Unlike those two USA is a new tree, which is surprisingly not so bad. Japan is new too, but is having weird focus choices (OP mentioned communist path). It is still okayish, all considered. Especially if compared with some newer ones

if naval combat would work properly , Japan would be blast to play
 
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TalyonUngol

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hmh...ITA is vanilla tree, USSR too. Unlike those two USA is a new tree, which is surprisingly not so bad. Japan is new too, but is having weird focus choices (OP mentioned communist path). It is still okayish, all considered. Especially if compared with some newer ones

if naval combat would work properly , Japan would be blast to play

I still say British Tree is just unappealing, but its not to say Japan isn't fun or anything. Its one of the couple nations ive done a WQ with.
 

bitmode

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I wouldn't say this is an issue of "quality vs quantity" as much as it is one of prioritization. It's not immediately obvious to me that limiting alt history focuses would suddenly make focus trees have higher quality.
Fair point. If they cut some of the alt-history it might not have necessarily resulted in more of what OP had in mind.
Also, you must play quite slowly if an average match for you takes 8-12 hours. The average for me is 3-5, e.g. for an RP Fascist Germany game it's 1hr for buildup, 2hrs to capitulate SOV+FRA+ENG, then maybe another 2hrs to capitulate USA+JAP+CHI if I want to go that far. These numbers assume a good deal of micromanagement on my part for tank divisions and airports.
True, I'm probably much slower than the average gamer. But broadly speaking, in contrast to most other games I've "finished", I don't look back at hoi4 thinking: it was great but I wish there was more content. But rather the inverse, wishing it did more with less.
 
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MobiusTwo

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I like the idea of limiting alt-history paths to plausible scenarios in most cases, while allowing exceptions for really well-though out, fun meme paths. Like, I'd actually support Hungary having a communist path, if their path wasn't complete garbage. Historically, Hungary wasn't going to have a Communist anything without getting conquered by the USSR (Horthy was super-duper anti-communist, and the communists were mostly purged in the 1920s). But I'd feel better about a communist branch being included on their tree if it had amounted to anything other than "go independent with no way to get other countries to join you and then get eaten by Germany" or "Join the Comintern and do a bunch of focuses that give the USSR new territory while giving yourself exactly nothing".

Monarchist UK is kind of unrealistic too (the UK has controls on the power of the King and the country wouldn't wake up one morning and think absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings was a cool thing to revisit), but I don't hear complaints about that one. Because it is fun. It has cool things you can do with it. War with Italy, ally with Germany (or don't), reclaim the dominions, war with the USA if you want it... there's a lot to do.

But an all-communist alt-history path for the USSR could actually provide different gameplay. Moderates could reconcile with the west, while having the room to do a global war against fascism. Trotsky could be your world conquest path. The idea has legs, if done well.

I guess that's my point, actually. Anything can be fun, if done well. German alt-history? Done well. British alt-history? Done well (mostly). Japanese alt-history? Done pretty poorly, actually.

Also, as an aside... I like having alt history paths because I do not like playing fascist Germany, for personal reasons. I'll do it for the achievements, but then it's restore the monarchy every single time. I think this is the reason I haven't actually touched the USSR to this point, either.

This is a very good post - at the end of the day, fun is what dictates how positively these alt-history focus trees are accepted by the community. I love the Kaiser path for Germany, and admit that it is very unrealistic, but I enjoy it because the game tries to turn it into a somewhat immersive story. But they could be better - I think the Kaiser's restoration would only have been possible if fascist Germany had been willing to accept Wilhelm II as a constitutional monarch after conquering the Netherlands, but of course, the Nazis were anti-monarchist, only using those aspects of German history to advance their own agenda. So it'd be cool if you could spend political power advancing the monarchist cause in Germany until Wilhelm II (or III) kind of assumes a role as the primary German leader once Hitler loses popularity (I'm thinking if you have low stability or war support). This would require hamstringing yourself in order to get the Kaiser back in power, but I would prefer this option to snapping your fingers and bringing the Kaiser back in 1936.

If they were to keep the Kaiser path in its current form, I would change it so that only the generals with monarchist leanings support the initial uprising, such as Fedor von Bock, or those generals who historically showed some skepticism towards aspects of the Nazi regime, such as, Günther von Kluge, Erwin von Witzleben, or Gotthard Heinrici.

As far as the monarchist UK path is concerned, we don't really have any idea what would have happened if Edward VIII had refused to abdicate, so I can't fault this path for being too contrived or unrealistic. However, the fascist and communist paths are they stand are nonsensical. Oswald Mosley was historically a supporter of Edward's marriage, so it would be interesting if you could appoint him as Prime Minister once you take absolute power as Edward - this would give you access to the existing fascist path. Winston Churchill was also a supporter of Edward - if you could appoint him, it would be neat if you could take gain access to parts of the existing democratic path. This would strengthen the path even further by giving the player even more choices and generally just be very fun. If they do that though, I think they should expand the traditional democratic alt-history by making it possible for the Labour Party to come to power and commit to decolonization after the war ends. You could maybe even give the player access to some of the more benign aspects of the existing communist tree to represent the Labour Party's more socialist leanings.

Finally, as far as Russia goes, I'd totally be down for some communist alt-history, as Russia is one of the few countries in the game where communism was a realistic outcome. I would love a Tsarist restoration path, but I just don't think that would ever have happened in the 1930s or 1940s (unless Edward or Wilhelm invaded and puppeted Russia - which is itself alt-history). That said, the vanilla fascist path for Russia is surprisingly fun - flip quickly enough to avoid the civil war you get from sparing your generals in the Great Purge, and then compete with Germany and Japan for hegemony in Eurasia by aligning with their usual allies, leaving them diplomatically isolated. This kind of goes back to the original point - if it's fun enough, people aren't going to complain about it.
 
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TalyonUngol

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Almost all of the alt history paths are fun. Spain. Portugal. France. UK. Germany. Manchuko. All have amazing alt history. Usa could do with a few of their focuses on the gold standard side to be lowered to 35 days instead of 70. Mainly the war powers act focuses and the left side of the silver shirts.

Japan and hungary need updates to their alt history trees. AH needs a few more focuses as well as removing the RNG. Japan just needs a rework of alt history period.

So far. 90% of alt history provided in the game is A lot of fun. I cant wait for Sweden, Russia, Italy, Iran, and South america trees. :D

UK and Kaiserin Germany are my favorite in the game for alt history. Manchuko too though this one is very hard.
 
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kettyo

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Usa could do with a few of their focuses on the gold standard side to be lowered to 35 days instead of 70

Even more important would be i think to restructure the tree in such a way that potential communist or fascist deviation wouldn't depend on being gold standard or new deal. Currently new deal is vastly OP compared to gold standard and also much more readily accessible so it's a no-brainer to go new deal but this leaves you with only democratic or communist options.
 

TalyonUngol

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Even more important would be i think to restructure the tree in such a way that potential communist or fascist deviation wouldn't depend on being gold standard or new deal. Currently new deal is vastly OP compared to gold standard and also much more readily accessible so it's a no-brainer to go new deal but this leaves you with only democratic or communist options.

Well right now, its also boring as hell with the current strategy of the game as USA is to never pick a focus and build up PP to use when you finally select gold standard. Like USA is just boring for me, not to mention how much political power it costs for the decisions, when all it does is moev your capital and change your countries name. Its like 300-400 PP in total to do all that just to go from non aligned to facist in your cival war which makes no sense. And that 400 PP is PP You desperately need for your country for its advisors and such. Like USA's tree isn't terrible or anything. Facist USA is strong as all get out, but its boring but that just might be how USA is designed.
 

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Mh, while i do agree that carefully done alt-history is fun i will always prefer the outlandish one to the plausible one, becasue they are usually more fun. But if there is plausible alt-history i won't complain.
 
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merulaalba

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Mh, while i do agree that carefully done alt-history is fun i will always prefer the outlandish one to the plausible one, becasue they are usually more fun. But if there is plausible alt-history i won't complain.


Exactly. I think that we all here agree that alt history is fun. But it should be plausible, not meme or achievements material
 
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Exactly. I think that we all here agree that alt history is fun. But it should be plausible, not meme or achievements material

And I have to disagree. There is really no such thing as Plausible history that is actual factual and this entire game is fantasy to begin with. Germany could have never done IRL what it does in game. It's fantasy.
 
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Nawolith

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Exactly. I think that we all here agree that alt history is fun. But it should be plausible, not meme or achievements material

Well, like i said, if i get a small story around it or can make my own im happy with it. Restoring the German Emperor is nonsense in 1936, but hell it's fun!
 
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merulaalba

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Well, like i said, if i get a small story around it or can make my own im happy with it. Restoring the German Emperor is nonsense in 1936, but hell it's fun!

Restoring the German emperor is still more plausible that bringing the Bourbon dynasty to the throne, or making Japan communist... there were efforts to bring Hohenzollerns back to the throne. Partly due to the popularity of the royal family among the German populace, Hitler brought Prinzenerlass, which forbade royal family members to serve in Wehrmacht.
 

desphorin

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Well right now, its also boring as hell with the current strategy of the game as USA is to never pick a focus and build up PP to use when you finally select gold standard. Like USA is just boring for me, not to mention how much political power it costs for the decisions, when all it does is moev your capital and change your countries name. Its like 300-400 PP in total to do all that just to go from non aligned to facist in your cival war which makes no sense. And that 400 PP is PP You desperately need for your country for its advisors and such. Like USA's tree isn't terrible or anything. Facist USA is strong as all get out, but its boring but that just might be how USA is designed.
Well you must have not heard of the broken 1937 total mob USA strat which will also remove Great Depression entirely by then :p

Srsly that's the only time I touched the USA tree after trying out all its options when it was first released.
 

ThePHD

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It comes down to popularity and that's really all there is to it. Go on youtube and search for HOI4 videos. It's just a bunch of crazy alt history playthroughs and meme videos that get the most views. That's what's popular so that's what they're going to do. There is a huge market for this kind of thing. It's why millenium dawn used to be such a popular mod. A lot of people like doing crazy things that could never actually happen in the real world.
 

Emperor_Napoleon

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It comes down to popularity and that's really all there is to it. Go on youtube and search for HOI4 videos. It's just a bunch of crazy alt history playthroughs and meme videos that get the most views. That's what's popular so that's what they're going to do. There is a huge market for this kind of thing. It's why millenium dawn used to be such a popular mod. A lot of people like doing crazy things that could never actually happen in the real world.

Yeah, it seems you're right. I guess HoI4 isn't really meant to appeal to people actually interested in WW2 history. Thankfully there are other WW2 strategy games that do. Anyway, it was interesting reading all these comments.
 
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