My constructive criticism on how focus trees are designed, specifically in regards to alt-history.

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Emperor_Napoleon

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This may be a controversial take, but here goes...

I've consistently supported limiting the alt-history focus tree paths for several nations (e.g. no communist path for Japan, no fascist or non-aligned path for the Soviet Union, no fascist path for most democratic countries, etc.), but every time I do, I get replies saying how that would remove all the fun of alt-history paths, and when I respond by saying that alt-history should be limited to only plausible historical contexts I get backlash on that. It seems that Paradox agree with these people, because they consistently keep putting in alt-history paths even when they make absolutely no sense - it's ridiculous that Japan has a communist path but Germany - the country that actually had a communist uprising 18 years before the game's start date and had multiple socialist and communist political parties - doesn't. Japan was historically one of the most violently and ideologically opposed countries in the world to communism, especially by the time the game starts where the country was run by a quasi-fascist military dictatorship.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd be pretty strict on limiting alt-history, and instead put all the devs' time and effort into massively fleshing out the current ideology/politics of each nation rather than making four smaller and less detailed paths. I'd love if each ideology had multiple branches within the one ideology, say for example for democracies you can pursue centrist policies, centre-right policies, far-right policies, centre-left policies, or far-left policies, all without actually having to convert to fascism or communism. Give the player some choice in how they want their country to develop, not just be red, blue, orange or grey.

Countries aren't such monolithic, binary entities in real life where being democratic means they always follow the same socioeconomic policies as every other democracy. Some democracies are considerably more left-wing than others. I mean look at the UK for example - in most of the game's time period it was ruled by the Conservative Party, exemplified by arguably the single most conservative modern British PM, Churchill; but then following his premiership, the Labour Party was voted in by a landslide and their PM, Clement Attlee, was arguably Britain's most progressive and left-wing premier to date, introducing a multitude of socialist policies and completely changing the UK's socioeconomic environment, but all completely within the same democratic framework that had years of conservative rule.

But HoI4 doesn't really let us do anything like that. Instead, you usually only get one type of approach you can pursue with each ideology - the democrats are all progressive, the fascists are all extremely right-wing, the communists are all extremely left-wing, the non-aligned... do whatever the hell they want, I guess. There's almost no room for alternative paths within these historical ideologies. Several mods address this - one of the best being Calm Before the Storm, which adds huge and multi-faceted focus trees for several countries, the best being for the UK, Germany and the USSR. In each of these countries you can choose what type of each ideology you want; whether you want to be a moderate centrist, or lean either right or left, or go full-speed to the extreme of either political stance, but all within each ideology. As Stalin you can choose to continue hardcore oppressive Marxist-Leninism, or choose to gradually soften and liberalise the USSR as eventually happened in the 1950s. Similarly, with Germany, you can be a far-right party and institute many of these policies without being a full-on Nazi, just like you can be a far-left party and introduce many socialist policies without being a communist.

This is how focus trees should be done, in my opinion, not the current approach of "I'm a communist but now I want to be a fascist so ill just click a couple of buttons and completely reshape the social, political and economic landscape of my country overnight lmao".

Anyway.... that's my two cents.
 
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fallgelb22061940

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It is okay, I hope nobody will add option to restore tsarist Russia, or if it comes to exist, I hope that only Stalin will be able to do that, since he was by that point literally he was the state. Nobody else had that power that he had. He could become both the new Tsar and the new fascist dicktator if he wanted. Also, he could liberalize Soviet Union to become what it in theory was. Of course, all of that is dependant on Stalins personal wishes. Also, it's 1936. Trotsky's age is over. He couldn't even dream to owerthrow Stalin. Maybe if Stalin wanted he could give him place in the government, but he was like Emanuel Goldstein in 1984 for SSSR at that time. So, I think nonaligned, fascist, communist paths the only guy you see should be Stalin. For democratic, it could depend....
 
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Emperor_Napoleon

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You want more alt-history things by what your text presents here.

This is not an political game it is more about war

You misunderstood the nuance of what I was saying. I'm differentiating between plausible, realistic alt-history, and completely absurd alt-history. The former is what I argue for - choosing to be moderate, or extreme, or centrist, etc. within your current ideology. This is completely plausible and has historical basis. But the absurd alt-history that I oppose is nonsense like Japan going communist, the USSR going fascist, etc. In other words, massive changes to a country's entire landscape that don't just happen in a couple of years after you hire an advisor.

As for the game being about war and not politics, that's correct, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be interesting political mechanics and choices to make. The game has content for 12 years, and 99% of the time you won't be fighting wars for that entire time. There needs to be interesting content outside of war. Paradox understand this, since in the upcoming Bosporus expansion there's a lot of interesting internal political mechanics. I'd like to see this sort of thing expanded even more.
 
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Aldahen

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I'm also a tiny bit allergic to the most outlandish alt-history paths. But I'm biased as I enjoy the warfare part the most, have never played the same country twice and have only 500h in the game.

I can see the appeal for people who hand done it all already or who just enjoy what-ifs.

Also you propose alt paths inside the same ideology. The result might be that they are finally only minor nuances that get buried under the bigger scale events. This is a game about WW2 after all.
 
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kettyo

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The current implementation of formables is the worst insult to plausibility i think. It's worse than all the fantasy paths combined. You just run a single decision and you revive the Roman Empire right from antique times. That just ignites my mind.

I'm not fully against formables but it should work like you need to invest a huge amount of PP and CIVs for it to work and it should work slowly, ideally in a state by state basis somewhat similarly to how anarchists can core states.

Regarding fantasy paths ideally we'd need an additional semi-historical or soft ahistorical game mode where the fantasy elements are disabled for everyone but everyone can still move freely among what is left. Actually this would also be possible with a mod.

Regarding many variations of the same ideology i don't see it would add any meaningful to the game as you already play every big ideology very similarly, the differences between then are very small. Ideologies largely serve as precursors to military alliances, apart from that the way you actually play the game as any of the ideologies are almost identical. I don't see how adding sub-variations of the big ideologies would add anything to the game.
 
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brissyger

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The majority of the new focus trees have multiple paths within the same ideology. There are multiple ways to play democratic France, Britain or America and likewise for communist paths there is usually a Stalinist path or an alternative path for every communist tree. So think those nuances exist to some degree. It might be cool for the democratic countries to have more of a parliamentary system like the Senate mechanic for US.

I do agree communist Japan is extremely outlandish as would fascist Soviets. I have a feeling there is almost certainly going to be a monarchist path for Soviets as the only recent tree I can think of without a monarchist path is Mexico. People are obsessed with restoring monarchies no matter how unrealistic it is. As was said in the other thread on here if they are going to do it they should at least make it interesting by losing chunks of land and having huge resistance modifiers. I personally would have nothing against a communist German path though the revolutionaries had been pretty much squashed by this point. An Italian communist path isn't too outlandish either, I believe Mussolini started out as a socialist.
 
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xsmilingbanditx

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Well...while I do understand your point of view, I beg to differ. Playing games is about having fun. And there are quite alot of people that like to screw around with (alt) history.
The fact that you can "turn around a countries ideology with a few clicks" is the limited timeframe that HoI4 (currently?) is situated.
There are alot of mods that expand the timeframe and the political systems. But there's no sense in doing either without the other.

Also, the System is very abstract and boiled down. Having 100% Support for whatever ideology doesn't really implicate that all the people of your country are of that ideology necessarily.
 
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Tsavong

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I justifiy those unrealistic alternative paths to myself so:

Most things that the foci do , dont happen at the moment you select them but instead represent things that happened some time ago. So for example the us fascist path is unrealistic to happen between 36-39, but if you think of several different things happening between 28-39 , maybe an even more catastrophic economy crisis, no new deal and stuff like that, its still not likely, but more reasonable.
Same for Germany. You select the oppose focus in 36 but i justifiy it so to me that it represents serverall things that happenend between 33 and 36 and just result in a civil war in 36.
 
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brissyger

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To be honest it is much to easy to flip ideology, some guides have you doing it two or three times. In most cases you are not going to get a fascist or communist revolution just from hiring an adviser for a year or two. It should almost always cause a civil war and probably some hits to stability and economy as well.
 
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Meglok

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Alt-history options sells DLC content. PDS is not going to stop creating alt-history to satisfy historical plausibility or historical purists. And there is always the player option of not using the alt-history paths.
 
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Jays298

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The only real critique I'd have of the alt history is that it makes the focus trees too bloated compared to Vanilla, and if they could simply highlight or color code the different paths, it might make it less of a visual headache to figure out what goes with what. Or even hide the stuff you don't want or can't do because you did the opposite path.

The alt history gives people something to do. And it's vastly oversimplified to make it fit within the realm of a 1936 game. Though what I suppose a lot of people want is a 1914 to 1920s political situation to some degree.
 

TalyonUngol

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The reason why you can flip ideologys overnight, as you say, is because the game runs too quickly between 36-40. 39-40 is when the actual game kicks off and if you haven't done anything because you are still waiting for your ideology to flip, you might as well quit if you are over in Europe as Germany has already smashed and taken all the land, meaning you just wasted all the time for nothing. Is it silly to have that done so quickly? Absolutely, but it makes sense because of how quickly the game runs and how much time you have to do things before Germany gets started. Once Germany takes France, you might as well pack your bags because Germany has finally started steam rolling.

As for the arguement of plausible alt-history and fantasy, that's really a matter of opinion. Lets take Germany winning ww2 for example. This is a hot topic about what-ifs, but this is still opinion. Alot of people say that if Germany didn't go for the soviet union and went for Iraq and Iran for oil, or if Germany did this or did that, but the thing is, to some thats a plausible scenario while to others it's complete fantasy. And what-if's are ALWAYS going to be an opinion. Take Italy for example.

What if Italy took all the land required to form the Roman Empire and was able to do it? Well, they would have called themselves the Roman Empire as that is what Mussolini dreamed of. Is it complete fantasy? I guess thats your opinion but I say it is, just because of Italys economic and militartic standpoint, they could have never done such good things, but some could argue 'what-if'? That's why I disagree with your plausible history arguement, because I think -all- alt-history is fantasy, which by definition it is since it didn't happen.

As for the ideology thing you are talking about, with the different branches of it... I don't really see how that will change much for hoi4. Democratics will still guarentee nations and fight the facists. you might get 5 focuses on a seperate branch regarding your economic standpoint if you are left or right on the political scale, but I don't really see any massive changes to the game just because you are left or right aligned democratic.
 
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Louella

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I played a game at the weekend as the UK where I decided go ahistorical and chose to support Czechoslovakia at the Munich conference. Everything else was historic mode.
Took a few years but, despite an Italian thrust in the South, France never fell and the Soviets were not involved in Europe, and instead they went after Japan, which meant a whole lot of the UK national focuses made little sense.
Briefly lost Gibraltar when Republican Spain joined the co prosperity sphere though.
 
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Reman

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Alt history that's dramatically different leads to more diverse campaigns which drastically increases replayability. It's very easy to win as Fascist Germany, so a branch of alt-history focuses that e.g. changes Germany's priorities to attacking into the Middle East after the fall of France instead of the Soviet Union would do little to make subsequent runs more interesting, as both the start and ultimate outcome would be the same as a normal campaign. In many cases, the nearer alt history paths like these are already doable by the player using existing mechanics, whereas the more radical alt-history paths like Return of the Kaiser or Democratic Germany aren't for a variety of reasons.

The OPs suggestion of slightly different political parties already exists somewhat, in regards to which political advisors you pick and which election outcomes you take in democracies like the USA and UK. These only lead to minor stat changes, but that seems sufficient for a game focused on WW2.
 
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TalyonUngol

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Alt history that's dramatically different leads to more diverse campaigns which drastically increases replayability. It's very easy to win as Fascist Germany, so a branch of alt-history focuses that e.g. changes Germany's priorities to attacking into the Middle East after the fall of France instead of the Soviet Union would do little to make subsequent runs more interesting, as both the start and ultimate outcome would be the same as a normal campaign. In many cases, the nearer alt history paths like these are already doable by the player using existing mechanics, whereas the more radical alt-history paths like Return of the Kaiser or Democratic Germany aren't for a variety of reasons.

The OPs suggestion of slightly different political parties already exists somewhat, in regards to which political advisors you pick and which election outcomes you take in democracies like the USA and UK. These only lead to minor stat changes, but that seems sufficient for a game focused on WW2.

Pretty much what this guy said in the first paragraph.

The radial Alt-history paths offer more replayability than just slight alt-history changes. Its why Soviet Unions tree is boring. You either go for Japan or Germany or you go for middle east and Africa. And it's just boring. You're limited.

It's why so many people are so eager to play Greece and Turkey and would like them to be able to do their formable nations easier/better... because its replayability and more options!
 
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bitmode

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Alt history that's dramatically different leads to more diverse campaigns which drastically increases replayability.
In my opinion replayability is not much of an issue for this game. Let's take the most extreme case (not that I'm advocating for it) of each country having just a single political focus path. Assuming a full match takes 8 to 12 hours, that's already 90 hours of gameplay in the base game playing each focus tree just once. This even ignores the variations already possible outside of the focus tree like abandoning/defending the French mainland as Britain or playing multiplayer.
I think raising the quality is more important than stretching the length of the game.
 
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squid_hills

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I like the idea of limiting alt-history paths to plausible scenarios in most cases, while allowing exceptions for really well-though out, fun meme paths. Like, I'd actually support Hungary having a communist path, if their path wasn't complete garbage. Historically, Hungary wasn't going to have a Communist anything without getting conquered by the USSR (Horthy was super-duper anti-communist, and the communists were mostly purged in the 1920s). But I'd feel better about a communist branch being included on their tree if it had amounted to anything other than "go independent with no way to get other countries to join you and then get eaten by Germany" or "Join the Comintern and do a bunch of focuses that give the USSR new territory while giving yourself exactly nothing".

Monarchist UK is kind of unrealistic too (the UK has controls on the power of the King and the country wouldn't wake up one morning and think absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings was a cool thing to revisit), but I don't hear complaints about that one. Because it is fun. It has cool things you can do with it. War with Italy, ally with Germany (or don't), reclaim the dominions, war with the USA if you want it... there's a lot to do.

But an all-communist alt-history path for the USSR could actually provide different gameplay. Moderates could reconcile with the west, while having the room to do a global war against fascism. Trotsky could be your world conquest path. The idea has legs, if done well.

I guess that's my point, actually. Anything can be fun, if done well. German alt-history? Done well. British alt-history? Done well (mostly). Japanese alt-history? Done pretty poorly, actually.

Also, as an aside... I like having alt history paths because I do not like playing fascist Germany, for personal reasons. I'll do it for the achievements, but then it's restore the monarchy every single time. I think this is the reason I haven't actually touched the USSR to this point, either.
 
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Dlin369

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I think there is some use for the sillier or fantastical trees like the unthinkable option in Japan - the AI scripting they’ve introduced to balance out scenarios (France, for example is supposed to go communist if Germany goes democratic), means it’s worth allowing various majors to go different ideologies to “reshuffle” the deck with regards to who is fighting on which sides
 
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