My concern for North Africa

[mike1097]

Hello,
From playing Hoi3 and watching the World War Wednesdays I have concern that North Africa isn't receiving the correct representation. In both these cases the British can kick out the Axis by 1940 with ease. Whilst historically, it lasted until 1942 and there was a very large risk of the British losing. I just feel that North Africa doesn't have much significance as I can remove the threat with a couple of divisions... Am I the only one with this concern?

 

[Anichent]

I have similar concerns in the game. Italy should be able to take Ethiopia with minimal casualties. The British and French are supposed to be easily defeated in the horn of Africa. A lot was off about HOI3 in terms of how long battles and wars should have lasted and how long they almost always took. But I haven't yet seen evidence of this problem in HOI4 really

 

[BeauNiddle]

The major issue is hindsight. I know that the Med & Africa is going to be important in the war so I ship a couple of divisions of light tanks and infantry over early when nobody can block the transports and then blitz as soon as war is declared.

In reality they had other concerns which stopped them building up in the area and by the time it kicked off the act of shipping that many troops and supplies was dangerous and therefore frowned upon.

I know France will fall so I don't bother reinforcing them, I know Germany can't reach British shores so I don't need reserves - therefore I know I can ship as many troops as I want to Africa. But I only know these things due to hindsight.

If you play the North Africa special campaign in HOI3 then the starting forces given to you are a mere fraction of what any normal player will allocate to that region. Thus the battles are a lot more fraught with danger and the campaign takes longer.

No idea if there is a solution to this problem.

 

[mike1097]

The major issue is hindsight. I know that the Med & Africa is going to be important in the war so I ship a couple of divisions of light tanks and infantry over early when nobody can block the transports and then blitz as soon as war is declared.

In reality they had other concerns which stopped them building up in the area and by the time it kicked off the act of shipping that many troops and supplies was dangerous and therefore frowned upon.

I know France will fall so I don't bother reinforcing them, I know Germany can't reach British shores so I don't need reserves - therefore I know I can ship as many troops as I want to Africa. But I only know these things due to hindsight.

If you play the North Africa special campaign in HOI3 then the starting forces given to you are a mere fraction of what any normal player will allocate to that region. Thus the battles are a lot more fraught with danger and the campaign takes longer.

No idea if there is a solution to this problem.

I couldn't agree more, the only problem for Britain, at least in HOI3, was North Africa. Then a few months later this battle ground has been won, then wait until the US sends a significant force to land on main land France and Italy!

 

[Lither]

I was hoping the HoI 4 supply system would help penalise the number of forces you can dump over there, especially prewar

 

[PlacidDragon]

Hello,
From playing Hoi3 and watching the World War Wednesdays I have concern that North Africa isn't receiving the correct representation. In both these cases the British can kick out the Axis by 1940 with ease. Whilst historically, it lasted until 1942 and there was a very large risk of the British losing. I just feel that North Africa doesn't have much significance as I can remove the threat with a couple of divisions... Am I the only one with this concern?

I understand what you mean

Historically, Churchill stripped the desert army of many of its men to help in Greece (that didn't turn out too well). Had they been allowed to stay in Africa, chances are that they'd have managed to kick the Italians out of Africa all together, as Rommel's Afrika Korps took time to be shipped over. We'll never know, there are many "what if" scenarios

 

[LordOfWar16]

Well, the italian AI didnt put any attention towards lybia at all. I think they only had about 1 small garrison division there. Africa actually is from more strategic significance now, especially with all those changes. Overall, you get strategic resources from them, which of course have to be shipped to the mainland and can be intercepted, you have in the more dense areas factory slots to work with and if you, as the axis cut off the british from the suez channel, your submarines and convoy raiders will have an much easier time since the convoys have to take the long route to supply the asian colonies.

 

[PanosB3]

I understand what you mean

Historically, Churchill stripped the desert army of many of its men to help in Greece (that didn't turn out too well). Had they been allowed to stay in Africa, chances are that they'd have managed to kick the Italians out of Africa all together, as Rommel's Afrika Korps took time to be shipped over. We'll never know, there are many "what if" scenarios

Many? Didn't he send about 60.000 soldiers most of whom were ill equipped-trained from Australia-New Zealand?
What was the army presence of UK when the Italian offensive began?

 

[potski]

In September 1940, one garrison brigade near the border (Cairo Infantry Brigade) and the 7th Armoured Division in the Western Desert Force under O'Connor.

The Allies also had the understrength 4th Indian Div in the Nile Delta. It was missing one of it's brigades, which IIRC was in Greece or Cyprus. There was also the 6th Australian and 2nd New Zealand Divisions, which were just arriving in Egypt and forming up in the Nile Delta.

Facing three standard Italian Divisions, a Blackshirt Division and a reserve of one Libyan Division. Forming the 10th Army on the Egypt border.

The Italians had the larger 5th Army (10 Divs - 7 standard Infantry, two Blackshirts, one Libyan) on the Western border protecting from invasion by France from Tunisia. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight that the French would not invade. And I don't think they knew how weak the Western Desert Force was.

In HOI3 I don't think the ITA AI ever deployed that number of Divs (15) to Libya by the summer of 1940, nor did the Aus and NZ AI deploy any of their forces to the Middle East.

It wouldn't surprise me if @Johan had redeployed a number of UK Divs from France to North Africa, but we don't see any great coverage of North Africa to show the relative strengths and deployments in Libya.

 

[PlacidDragon]

Many? Didn't he send about 60.000 soldiers most of whom were ill equipped-trained from Australia-New Zealand?

Considering that they were sent from Africa, which is a continent not known for its lush terrain and plentiful water, 60.000 troops is a great deal, hehe.

But yes, General Wavell was ordered to stop his advance because the situation in Greece in Churchill's mind took precedence (Greece was the only Central European ally Britain had left). The stop resulted in the Afrika Korps getting deployed, and having an easier time against weakened British opposition.

Sent over was the 1st British Armored Brigade, a Polish Brigade and several divisions of Australians and New Zealanders.

What was the army presence of UK when the Italian offensive began?

When Italy started its offensive, the British only had 36.000 men and 65 tanks (British 7th Armored Division, and the 4th Indian Infantry Division). There were also elements of other formations in Egypt, a Brigade of the 2nd New Zealand Infantry division (with the two other Brigades arriving later in time for them to ship to Greece), and the 6th and 7th Australian Infantry divisions, which were in training.

 

[Denkt]

Supply lines will probably be a problem in HOI4 as if axis control France, they get alot of opportunities to stike against british convoys that carry supplies to Africa and the supplies the sunk convoys carried are lost. However the same applies to axis convoys as well.

 

[PlacidDragon]

Supply lines will probably be a problem in HOI4 as if axis control France, they get alot of opportunities to stike against british convoys that carry supplies to Africa and the supplies the sunk convoys carried are lost. However the same applies to axis convoys as well.

True enough that.

UK convoys would be under primarily Uboat threat in the Atlantic (though potentially in range of NAV's), then air attacks throughout most of their Mediterranean route (from Sardinia, Sicily, Mainland Italy, and also Italian held Africa) , as well as any surface or underwater raiders the Italians operate in the Med. That is unless they decide to go around Africa instead of through Gibraltar.

Italy on the other hand, while having a much shorter supply route, would be massively threatened by Malta, as well as the British (and potentially surviving French) Med. fleets. While i very much doubt that Malta would have anywhere near the same importance in the game as it had in real life, its still my target numero uno when playing as Italy

 

[Will Steel]

Sadly, it looks like another HoI game won't be able to present African theater properly...again...

 

[scroggin]

Many? Didn't he send about 60.000 soldiers most of whom were ill equipped-trained from Australia-New Zealand?
What was the army presence of UK when the Italian offensive began?

The Australian and New Zealand troops sent to africa were equiped to roughly the same standard as regular british troops. The only differences Im aware of between the New Zealand division and British divisions is that the New Zealanders were more heavily motorised and there was a period in the campaign for Italy when the british had new model artillery before us.

The real problem in North Africa is one of AI programming. It is just as easy for a human Italy to drive the british out of North Africa as it is for a human Britain to drive out an AI Italy.

 

[Mozes000]

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[GeneralPetrov]

You guys need to bear in mind that the game hasn't actually entered Beta, the balancing stage, yet. I wouldn't trust what happens to the various countries and theatres in WWW to be representative of the end game, it's mainly just there to demonstrate the basic mechanics such as as far as I understand. Hopefully after months of balancing it'll be a bit more plausible and accurate.

 

[tfrules]

From what I recall it was only the Afrika corps' arrival that prevented the total defeat of Italian troops in Africa, since Jakob didn't send troops to Africa and Italy entered the war early, combined with the fact that Britain retains all the French troops and the French fleet, it would be very surprising if Italy had been able to hold on at all.

 

[Anichent]

Its more than just a problem with Africa when I think about it. Luxembourg in HOI3 usually had a decent army when in reality they were conquered without their military being deployed. 6 police and 1 soldier died or something like that.

But I'd say HOI4 is looking good because Belgium and the Netherlands and Luxembourg were conquered a lot easier in WWW than they were in HOI3.

 

[shri]

The African theater is compounded by two major problems-
Hindsight of the Player and the Incompetence of the AI in a "Fluid Battle".
The AI is usually good in set-piece battles like France and USSR and on higher levels of difficulties does manage to have lines which are 3 regions deep and difficult to Blitz.

But in North Africa, you have to hold the "Coastal Road" at all costs but at the same time be aware of your flanks.
Rommel once remarked that a single motorised division with good AT equipment was worth half a dozen foot infantry divisions.
The problem is, the Italians are mostly "Flat-Footed Formations" and the British player in 1940 will slice through them like a Hot Knife through butter.
It is a simple strategy, keep the infantry on the defense and swing the armor to encircle and then fight the battles and win and proceed to Tripoli.

Johan has done exactly that in the WWW.

 

[tsk92]

Well bearing in mind that the British and Commenwealth beat the Italian forces in Libya with ease, it wasn't until the Germans arrived that things went sour.
In HO3/4 the Germans never arrive in Africa, it is left to the Italians, which is why it is easy.