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"Colonial buildings are too cheap - To prevent the map from being consumed by those nations with early wealth, make the buildings initially very expensive with a decline in cost in 1880 when the colonial rush really kicked in."

Very good suggestion!
At least if it is limited to the African continent (but can this be done...?).
 

Johnny Canuck

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JScott991 said:
I don't know the AI cheats, I just suspect it given what I've seen when I loaded the game up as Holland or Russia. It doesn't seem possible that they could have built most of the colonial buildings in the world by 1840 given their output of resources and also dollars. But I could be wrong. Its a side issue anyway. Of course, since the mods and betas like the game I'm sure its working perfectly.

So you only have a suspicion that the AI cheats? A previous post by yourself started with the comment: "The AI must cheat." If you only have a suspicion, you probably shouldn't use the word must.


JScott991 said:
If the AI is not cheating, then it is ignoring its AI file. Holland is set to build only one colonial building at a time, as is Russia, but they clearly ignore that setting. I'm not sure why. Also, they go outside their primary zones before their colonization there is complete, again I'm not sure why.

AI countries that are Great Powers are able to colonize outside of the regions assigned to them in their AI files.


JScott991 said:
Its galling to me that there has not been one post by someone who was involved in the release of this patch that doesn't voice some dissent. How can so many players hate it without any of the mods or betas even remotely sympathizing?

Okay, I'm a beta & a mod, & I'm not a big fan of how colonization works right now. It is too early & too quick. It does make for an exciting colonial race (which is better than no colonial race), but a bit more tweaking might be in order.

Still, though, IMHO 1.02 is quite a bit better than 1.01. Perfect? Of course not. But a definite improvement.

BTW, it is not a matter of the mods/betas not sympathizing. If you look at all of the recent threads, mods/betas like myself have been posting suggestions for people in terms of dealing with the new patch, especially with respect to economic questions. We are also attentive to all suggestions for improvements. We do pay attention, but of course not every suggestion can be implemented.
 

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JScott991 said:
There's no conspiracy, I just find it frustrating that there is a percentage of posters and players who do not enjoy the patch

at least we've moved from the silent majority to "a percentage". Yes. I agree. There is a percentage. Like every other patch.

JScott991 said:
, but that the betas and mods who have posted about it have all loved it and reflexively defended it.

Maybe because betas tend to be more serious knowledgeable gamers who want Vic to represent the dynamics of the timeperiod. I will grant you that it is possible that Paradox is forcing them to toe the company line, but c'mon. I personally find that very farfetched, especially given the eloquence and intelligence of some of them. To my mind it just makes 100000x more sense that they like it because it better reflects the dynamics of the timeperiod and isn't simply a massive race to build factories as fast as possible. 1.01 was fun, but it felt like an arcade game. There wasn't a whole lot of thinking, not a whole lot of strategy

JScott991 said:
Its galling to me that there has not been one post by someone who was involved in the release of this patch that doesn't voice some dissent. How can so many players hate it without any of the mods or betas even remotely sympathizing?

I have gotten the following impression:

BETA: "Yes, you can't turboindustrialize. You have to think about tradeoffs. You can't do everything at once. What worked then may not work now. But play it for a while and see if you come around. We all did."

That doesn't sound completely unsympathetic. It sounds like someone who understands the changes, when taken all at once are rather drastic. They are merely suggesting to see how it plays once you adjust and relearn how to strategize.

JScott991 said:
But very clever post. I'm glad you read mine closely.

Of course. This is a debate that WE ABSOLUTELY NEED to have. Above all else, I want Vic to rock and roll, and do so in a way that reflects the tradeoffs of the timeperiod

JScott991 said:
I tried posting about the real issues yesterday and was slammed by all the mods and betas as being melodramatic.

No, you were slammed by everyone because you were being melodramatic :D :D :D

JScott991 said:
Posting about the issues doesn't help. The people who don't like 1.02 are beaten.

That flies in the face of years of experience w/ paradox.


JScott991 said:
The game will not shift back in the direction of a more balanced sense of development that makes the early game as playable as the end game. And that's the real issue here that's being ignored by the gamers who love the new challenge. In a game like Victoria, the beginning of the game should be just as much fun and just as playable as the end. That's the whole point of the GC.

What, like the mid/end was exciting in 1.01? After the 4th or 5th time my Sweden had totally worked Russia before 1880, I can honestly say it wasn't as much fun anymore. Personally, I'd rather open a little slow building and have it more fun later than open like gangbusters and then be unstoppable. No challenge.


JScott991 said:
But right now that's not the case. That's even been conceded by the mods who defended the patch. My main problem with this "race to profitability" approach to the game is that the events and history of the period are concentrated in the first half, not the second. By taking away the ability to play more slowly in the first half, you reduce the impact significantly.

I totally agree that the game need more events, especially later in the game. I'm a bit of an event-whore, frankly, and I want as many as possible, even if they're tiny.

The best part of the challenge is that you're not developing in a vacuum. There are other powers plotting nasty things for you. Again, that's what the period was all about. The Tradeoffs, the Scarcity, the Sacrifices. That's what makes the game interesting. Also not easy.

I hate to say this, but if you want your cake building spree, you have 1.01. And I support a 1.015 (non-economic parts of 1.02) if it means that more people will play and love vicky, b/c that means more paradox games, but not at the expense of making Vicky what (I think) it should be.
 
Last edited:

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I just re-read the news blurb paradox put out about Victoria:
Guide your nation from the era of absolute monarchies of the early 19th century to evolve into a fully industrialized Great Power at the dawn of the 20th century! You must make sure that you stay ahead in wealth and strength, and skillfully manage the democratization process without disintegrating.

Victoria focus on six different aspects, all interconnected, to provide a deep, yet easily accessible game-play; Diplomacy, Warfare, Economy & Industrialisation, Colonisation, Technological Development and Political Simulation.

I guess I began playing the game with a focus on the military history of it. It is obvious from the informational blurb that the game was intended to be a resource management nation building game. I don't mind working with economics or research, that is a part of the fun and necessary. True to its intent, the game focuses on these. I prefer to focus on the military strategy of the time period, thus I've discovered that this game wasn't meant for me. I refuse to slam Paradox or the betas for delivering what was promised. I encourage those unhappy with the current patch to post alternative ideas to help with the development of the game.

I'll just have to wait for Paradox to release their next game "Two Thrones" and hope it is more my style.
 

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Johnny Canuck said:
How do you know the AI cheats? Perhaps the AI is just good at running its country? The Dutch start with 5 machine parts, which is more than enough to build the cement & lumber factory needed to build colonial buildings. If you look closely, you will see that the Dutch (like the Russians) start building colonial buildings early in 1837, when the cement & lumber factories are completed. Simply put, the AI is smart at how it spends its initial allotment of machine parts. Also, cement & lumber are two goods that are more available than others on the world market, as several countries produce them (I find the US quickly becomes a world leader in cement production, while the Russians & Swedes seem to export lumber).

Johnny you know that is being disingenious or you are just lying...the problem is not the dutch not having enough raw materials to build clonial buildings...that was never a limiting factor for the AI or the PLAYER

the problem is where do they get the 100,000-200,000 gold I see them spend on colonial buildings in the first 2 or 3 years
 

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ok lets go down the list:

1 there is no conspiracy..elvis is really alive and actuallyrunnign the world by a secret government in a hidden fortress int he middle of the amazon forest...directed of coruse by the aliens that kidnappped and brainwashed him before he was turned over to the cia to use in secret tests to impregnate the first lady before being sold to the argentinians for the 4th reich revival efforts...

<sorry coundlt resist some humor LOL >

ok as for the patch im not saying its perfect..the eco model does need more finetuning yet..but as exhibited by the previous games and their patching its a step in the right direction , not the end all be all of patches..i do feel that people are being overly ciritcal of it first off its been out for a day maybe? and yet everyone seems to have become an expert on it despite the obvious limited expereicne theycould possibly have...play out several games first as majors to test the mainocus of the game, then try several as mediums using legitimate strategies and different strategems each time...note the events, effects and results of your decisions and game flow..summarize them then post...back up what you say with supported statements rather than vociferous remarks based off an emotional response to first impressions..im not saying some of what you say may not be right..or that some is not wrong..only that its too soon for the opinions to actually be based on actual experience and facts...yes the game has become immensely more difficult foir minors..the more minor you are the harder it is..which frnakly is what was intended because the goal was realism not to match civ style of play..yes i lvoto play whatifs ju liek anyone else and immensely enjoy some fo the outcomes..but to expect that as portugal im gonna gear up aick englands butt all over is ludicrous if it happens thats actually more evidence that game needs fixing...the game is about an era that emphasized not world conquest but rather accomplishments such as the race to the norht pole souh pole , first flgith, first rail first this or that, greatest building, largest liners, it was an era of competition to trumpet a nations growth prosperity accomplishments...very little of it was actually prestige based off conquest...thus a game that models the lesser impact of warfare and greater emphasis on eco and science developemtn is more accurate for the era..thats not to say you houldnt be able make war..and frankly you can make war..just nee to be careful who you war on...dont attack great powers or you lose you cant compete with them you got no business fighting them anyway as a minor...thus far i ran some tests as brazil, argentina, spain, portugal, sweden , netherlands, belgium, and swiss..30 year tests and found everyone one of these nations playable..slow to build but very much playable..social refor have to wait till later of course but frankly most of these reforms didnt occur in real life till much later anyway so that modeled correctly...

also note i do not belittle playing minors but only point out that they are not and never have beent main focus of the game..thats what mods are for..you want a certain country to compete ont he world stage you have cheats , you can make mods, or you can simply play it tough..but the efforts to make that nation plaable and equal would cripple the game concept and designers goals..the game is a historical strategy game and efforts should be focused more on modeling that and trying to match the parameters of the era rather than making every single nation someone wants to play perfectly balanced which they werent..again thats what mods are for

as for cirticizing the mods for having different opinions than yours is unwarrented..the modders and betas are more in tune with the stated goals of the game..while they understand they cannot make every single person happy all of the time, they have read the previous posts and ideas and done what they could to implement things that would not defeat the goal of the game..people seek our these kidns of games because the rep of the company at making hisotrical liens of games and so their efwi on that fst and foremost...they arent ignoring you but merely puttign a lower priority on some of those ideas <who knows how many patches in future before they may or may not make it in> post ideas thats fine.. but dontexpect that every idea will make it in next patch or one after just because you graced it with your opinion..they have to judge the game as a whole and the impact of all the ideas..and they do listen as evidenced int he entire line of games they put out all the patches and mods and modability they provided..dont criticize them for doing their best to meet the challenges they are given, they are giving their time and efforts to do all they can and as long as people are civil with their ideas, constructive with their cirticisms, lucid in their remarks, and evidentary in their conclusions then they will listen more and take hd more..simply shouting iu hate it i hate it it sucks in 20 different threadin 100 different ways doesnt accomplish anything..some of those abov are doing well in pointing things out..but as i said above its too son for those opinions to have much weight on them
 

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Becephalus said:
Johnny you know that is being disingenious or you are just lying...the problem is not the dutch not having enough raw materials to build clonial buildings...that was never a limiting factor for the AI or the PLAYER

the problem is where do they get the 100,000-200,000 gold I see them spend on colonial buildings in the first 2 or 3 years

The only way I have been able to have enough money to do anything is to completely give up funding crime fighting and the military...just don't do it at all it really helps and doesn't seem to hurt that much

What is with crime fighting anyway...having corruption in every single province only decreases my income by about 10 a day and crimefighting is right now costing me 80 a day with half my factories closed and 2 10% reduction techs. Why would I ever put a single dollar into crime fighting when the costs so outweigh the rewards
 

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Amen, brother! Way to be the voice of reason.


dralizaar said:
ok lets go down the list:

1 there is no conspiracy..elvis is really alive and actuallyrunnign the world by a secret government in a hidden fortress int he middle of the amazon forest...directed of coruse by the aliens that kidnappped and brainwashed him before he was turned over to the cia to use in secret tests to impregnate the first lady before being sold to the argentinians for the 4th reich revival efforts...

<sorry coundlt resist some humor LOL >

ok as for the patch im not saying its perfect..the eco model does need more finetuning yet..but as exhibited by the previous games and their patching its a step in the right direction , not the end all be all of patches..i do feel that people are being overly ciritcal of it first off its been out for a day maybe? and yet everyone seems to have become an expert on it despite the obvious limited expereicne theycould possibly have...play out several games first as majors to test the mainocus of the game, then try several as mediums using legitimate strategies and different strategems each time...note the events, effects and results of your decisions and game flow..summarize them then post...back up what you say with supported statements rather than vociferous remarks based off an emotional response to first impressions..im not saying some of what you say may not be right..or that some is not wrong..only that its too soon for the opinions to actually be based on actual experience and facts...yes the game has become immensely more difficult foir minors..the more minor you are the harder it is..which frnakly is what was intended because the goal was realism not to match civ style of play..yes i lvoto play whatifs ju liek anyone else and immensely enjoy some fo the outcomes..but to expect that as portugal im gonna gear up aick englands butt all over is ludicrous if it happens thats actually more evidence that game needs fixing...the game is about an era that emphasized not world conquest but rather accomplishments such as the race to the norht pole souh pole , first flgith, first rail first this or that, greatest building, largest liners, it was an era of competition to trumpet a nations growth prosperity accomplishments...very little of it was actually prestige based off conquest...thus a game that models the lesser impact of warfare and greater emphasis on eco and science developemtn is more accurate for the era..thats not to say you houldnt be able make war..and frankly you can make war..just nee to be careful who you war on...dont attack great powers or you lose you cant compete with them you got no business fighting them anyway as a minor...thus far i ran some tests as brazil, argentina, spain, portugal, sweden , netherlands, belgium, and swiss..30 year tests and found everyone one of these nations playable..slow to build but very much playable..social refor have to wait till later of course but frankly most of these reforms didnt occur in real life till much later anyway so that modeled correctly...

also note i do not belittle playing minors but only point out that they are not and never have beent main focus of the game..thats what mods are for..you want a certain country to compete ont he world stage you have cheats , you can make mods, or you can simply play it tough..but the efforts to make that nation plaable and equal would cripple the game concept and designers goals..the game is a historical strategy game and efforts should be focused more on modeling that and trying to match the parameters of the era rather than making every single nation someone wants to play perfectly balanced which they werent..again thats what mods are for

as for cirticizing the mods for having different opinions than yours is unwarrented..the modders and betas are more in tune with the stated goals of the game..while they understand they cannot make every single person happy all of the time, they have read the previous posts and ideas and done what they could to implement things that would not defeat the goal of the game..people seek our these kidns of games because the rep of the company at making hisotrical liens of games and so their efwi on that fst and foremost...they arent ignoring you but merely puttign a lower priority on some of those ideas <who knows how many patches in future before they may or may not make it in> post ideas thats fine.. but dontexpect that every idea will make it in next patch or one after just because you graced it with your opinion..they have to judge the game as a whole and the impact of all the ideas..and they do listen as evidenced int he entire line of games they put out all the patches and mods and modability they provided..dont criticize them for doing their best to meet the challenges they are given, they are giving their time and efforts to do all they can and as long as people are civil with their ideas, constructive with their cirticisms, lucid in their remarks, and evidentary in their conclusions then they will listen more and take hd more..simply shouting iu hate it i hate it it sucks in 20 different threadin 100 different ways doesnt accomplish anything..some of those abov are doing well in pointing things out..but as i said above its too son for those opinions to have much weight on them
 

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by the way the ai doesnt need to cheat and i havent seen eivdence of it..i played the dutch and russiad when i clonial rout i had absolutely no trobule going colony happy.. it sets other things back some but was very doable even without goingseriously in debt both countries have a lot of economic power..the real challenge was doing much as spain..here the ai does seem to do much better than i have even in 1.01 lol..but even as france and uk colonizing was very easy very very easy..in fact in msot games every coastal colony spot is taken usually by 1840-41...and i can see th that area is going to need some serious tweaking as that is much too fast for colonial efforts in general
 

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Wheels said:
at least we've moved from the silent majority to "a percentage". Yes. I agree. There is a percentage. Like every other patch.

This all eerily reminds me of the 157% hate MOO arguements :eek:

Maybe because betas tend to be more serious knowledgeable gamers who want Vic to represent the dynamics of the timeperiod.
That's not necessarily true. Looking at the evolution of EU2, it went from aiming at historic feel to aiming to stop the extremists who use every exploit to conquer territory.

I've got mixed feelings about the new patch, still don't have enough experience with it to formulate any coherent posts, but I will say that the "EU2" factor has reared it's ugly head.

The patch appears very much as though rather than focusing on the cause of exploits, it's simply trying to stamp them out. For example; too easy to be an artillery mogul in 1840, instead of looking at the real cause of this, the game has simply ensured that factories requiring finished goods will never have enough resources. That's fine in fixing the problem, but it doesn't address the root, and it causes other problems; for example, I can't see my Vic world's Light Brigade having any artillery to charge at Balaclava :(

I'm repeating myself here, but harder does not mean more accurate. There's nothing wrong with a difficult game except when artificial constructs paper over the original design in an effort to hide any flaws.
 

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Becephalus said:
Johnny you know that is being disingenious or you are just lying...the problem is not the dutch not having enough raw materials to build clonial buildings...that was never a limiting factor for the AI or the PLAYER

the problem is where do they get the 100,000-200,000 gold I see them spend on colonial buildings in the first 2 or 3 years

Add to this question, where do they get the resources to make craftsmen to run those new factories they need to colonize?
 

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dutch dont need to covnert any pops to make craftsmen etc..simple move the oens that they start wi from one factory to another and shut em down..i always shdownt he clipper on for example..and with taxtes and tariffs set middle ground yo dont need to sell smalla rms so i shut it dn as well...giving me manpower to stock up cement factories and i can always buy a trickle of regular clothes and furniture early if i set buying right off at buy <1000...using those not hard to get what you ned and reopen clsoed factories
 

Johnny Canuck

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Becephalus said:
Johnny you know that is being disingenious or you are just lying...the problem is not the dutch not having enough raw materials to build clonial buildings...that was never a limiting factor for the AI or the PLAYER

the problem is where do they get the 100,000-200,000 gold I see them spend on colonial buildings in the first 2 or 3 years

Well, I was not trying to be disingenuous, & frankly I don't appreciate the accusation that I was lying. If you start a game as the Dutch, you will see that even without raising taxes or lowering military maintenance, the Dutch are able to make 90 or so pounds per day, which works out to just over 30 000 pounds a year. Considering that a trading posts costs 5000 pounds, that means that the Dutch can afford six trading posts per year. In my experiences, the Dutch tend to build 4-6 colonial buildings per year. I hope that addresses your question.
 

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Paul Bäumer's gravedigger
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I am sorry for the issinuation you were lying..maybe the patch is hitting different countries differently becuase some of them seem crippled and other almost strengthened...I don't know...the the two 1.02 dutch games I played were right away before I got the handle of 1.02, maybe I shoudl try them again
 

dralizaar

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hehe on side note: java when released from netherlands is now a bigger monster than ever beforlol..course it was never intended to be a nation on its own..but given fact that it arts with independant nation status/satelklite..unlike korea china and japa...add in it starts with good tech, high pop, decent goods rgo output, good tax rates, all in all its a beast in disguise hehe for tose that want to play a minor with an attitude give em a go..release java as netherlands save and reload as java and go for it
 

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Suggestions for improvements do not equal dislike

JScott991 said:
Why do 80% of the posts by players hate the patch, but 100% of the posts by mods and betas love it.

That seems to be a fairly rapid trip into the realms of hyperbole. It would appear that the majority of players like the patch but see additional room for improvement. Yes I would like colonialism slowed down and the industrial and RGO output a tad more robust in the early game and posted those concerns. Most posts seem to reflect the same general idea, that while additional tweaking is needed from a gameplay point of view, overall the patch is an improvement. To imply such as vast gulf between Paradox, the Mods and Betas and the rest of the user community is inaccurate. The idea that anyone posting concerns or added areas for improvement "hates" the patch grossly misrepresents the majority of comments.

What I really like is the trend towards a very competitive single player game with the major nations and would love to see that trend continued regardless of the effect on the ability to play minors.
 

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Why I don't like 1.02:

1. Although I prefer the challenge, I feel as though it is challenging for the wrong reasons. Not because the AI is more challenging, but because I am more limited in what I can do.

2. I don't like the concept of having to drastically slash a country's economy and raise taxes to absurd levels to get it going. Its not just that it is not historic, but it seems like a band-aid, not a real solution. Just as much as not having economic troubles in the late game would be.

If one argues that 'well governments frequently ran a deficits,' one also has to acknowledge that type of debt is not simulated in the game, and that this did not radically destroy a nation as it does in Victoria. My game style has been to up taxes and tariffs, drop all spending except education (since this is more an investment, even short term...). And if one argues that this is for the sake of gameplay, well then I just plain don't like it. To me this is the only way you can play the early game, and thus it leaves out strategy for me. Except strategy of the most minute kind, which brings me to number 2:

3. I feel as though there is now an increase in micromanagement, just to try and keep my economy in the black. And I don't particularly like micromanagement, at least past a certain point. I bought this game since EUII was the only game I have enjoyed in a long while, and is in fact now one of only two games I own (Victoria being the other). I did know somewhat that this was not to be same type of game, so I won't whine too much on this point, but managing pops every few days, and concerning myself with ratios so I can eke out an extra $0.50 from my clipper factory, or opening/closing/opening my clipper factory to fall in line with my fabric production is not my idea of fun.

4. I can make money still, and get in on the colonization race (which itself is a problem, but does not bother me as much as other points), but this is usually by cheezy exploits. In order to industrialize, I found my self trading my technology to Russia, or experimenting with good ol' colonial war/grab claim/sell claim tactics. To me this is not successfully managing an economy, it was cheating to get around it. Because of this my diplomats are now also used up - I need those thousand dollars from selling my techs, so the political game is now closed off.

5. Although what I enjoyed most when I first played Victoria was my Scheisweg war as Denmark, simply because my economy began losing hundreds of dollars a day, and spiralled into debt, due to my military agenda (which I found to be fun due to its realism), now I feel as though that is not even an option (I did play with house options to remove the exploits of luxury goods - surprisingly though, I'd play a 1.02esque game, where I would make my own stuff from the ground up, and it worked much better in 1.01). I can't get into a real war at all anymore, and since my first few games have been as Denmark (a nation that should be playable, if any should), I look to that oncoming financial burden with disdain rather than glee. So I feel the military option is also out in the first 1/3 of the game.

That leaves me to pursue my economy and cheesy colonization in the first part of the game, because thats all you can do. And I don't get to the second part, because I am frustrated and bored, which absolutely never happened with EUII. The game was simply made less dynamic by aiming at handicapping players who are probably quite good at playing the game, and possibly who were quite good at exploiting it. I definitely had more fun in my house rules 1.01 though, but since part of that fun was imagining that 1.02 would be even better, I am going to shelve Victoria for a while.

And for what its worth, I'm not a regular complainer. First time I haven't liked a patch (including EUI and EUII). Trying to figure out the numbers on that isn't going to work on either side. But I do think people are turning a blind eye if they don't admit more are unhappy with this patch than others...
 

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Ludovico said:
And for what its worth, I'm not a regular complainer. First time I haven't liked a patch (including EUI and EUII). Trying to figure out the numbers on that isn't going to work on either side. But I do think people are turning a blind eye if they don't admit more are unhappy with this patch than others...

Thats me too...I have loved every single eu and eu2 patch and every hoi patch and thought the patches which made eu2 drastically harder was exactly what the game needed...
 

Specterx

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I'm mixed on 1.02. It's good that you don't have a million pounds by 1860, but the beginning game is far too boring now.

I strongly disagree with the notion that only five or six countries in Europe should be "playable". I didn't buy this game so I could use the same cookie-cutter strategy as France or the U.S. every time, dealing with the same events and fighting the same scripted wars. That's boring. I'm completely baffled by people who think that dealing with the same docile China every time is more fun than dealing with the possibility of a belligerent China able to defend itself - and this is only one example. Why do you even play the game when you can predict exactly what will happen (the only exception being the minor differences due to events - sometimes you'll have the CSA, oh boy!)?